COTA: New PB - where can I improve?
09-07-2016, 09:22 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Mark, my old car does not have a 3.0 nor anything resembling its torque or power curves.
Look, Mark, you know more than I ever will about 928's. I don't comment about the 928 because I don't know much about them and haven't tracked one. So I shut up.
Perhaps you should stay in your own lane...
Look, Mark, you know more than I ever will about 928's. I don't comment about the 928 because I don't know much about them and haven't tracked one. So I shut up.
Perhaps you should stay in your own lane...
09-07-2016, 09:26 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
"The meat of the torque curve means nothing". Ok, Mark...lol 
Mark, that GS car is a V8 that makes essentially no torque and all of its power way way way up top. No comparison to my old car whatsoever.
I am being nice because you simply don't know what you don't know...
Mark, that GS car is a V8 that makes essentially no torque and all of its power way way way up top. No comparison to my old car whatsoever.
I am being nice because you simply don't know what you don't know...
we are not talking about killing the motor, or even redlining. we are talking about using what he has and making a faster lap time with out making any changes to what he is already doing in other parts of the track.
Its part of the race-craft... knowing what the car can do and using it! no work- arounds.... learn how to do it and you will be faster!
you want safe and no wheel spin ... get an automatic! otherwise, learn to drive the car as it was meant to be and others around you are doing as well!
09-07-2016, 09:32 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Mark, my old car does not have a 3.0 nor anything resembling its torque or power curves.
Look, Mark, you know more than I ever will about 928's. I don't comment about the 928 because I don't know much about them and haven't tracked one. So I shut up.
Perhaps you should stay in your own lane...
Look, Mark, you know more than I ever will about 928's. I don't comment about the 928 because I don't know much about them and haven't tracked one. So I shut up.
Perhaps you should stay in your own lane...
I do know quite a bit about them. Now, what i dont know is what motor you do have. you could enlighten us to this fact and i will concede if my information is not true and correct. sorry, but i assumed it was a stock M3 US . its choices are 3.0 and 3.2 liter. i also worked a lot on the euro 3.2 motor. (S52 or S50 so let me know which one)
the HP curves are very similar for this discussion. i dont think that my position or advise would change, but enlighten us all if it would.
thanks,... and im sure mike would thank you too because this is good information for him to have'
anyway, here is a stock 1999 3.2L US. the song remains the same dave. coming out of that turn at 2900rpm to 3300rpm costs between 60-80hp on the exit for a few seconds! thats HUGE!! and , this can help and thats why im posting it.
Last edited by mark kibort; 09-07-2016 at 09:50 PM.
09-07-2016, 09:56 PM
#19
Drifting
Thread Starter
Mark, stop it. We've had this discussion before and you're not adding anything. While I did post this here that also means I wanted input beyond you. I certainly did not post it to provide cannon fodder for you to kirbort another thread and attack a friend of mine. Furthermore, Dave has earned enough respect from me that I've actually paid him for his advice and bought his car pretty much sight unseen - I actually never drove it until I first took it to the track and only gave it a cursory glance when I picked it up - a month after I paid for it. The set of people I'd be willing to do that with is extremely small.
In addition, I'm just the second owner of that car and the way I received it was far from stock. Dave bought it brand new, bone stock, and over the years transformed it into what it is today. The only things I've done to the car is revert to a mechanical fan, put in an under tray, changed the seats, added throttle and brake to the data, and hardwired power for the camera and data. It is a joy to drive and doesn't have a single bad habit and has been very reliable. It outruns other E36 M3s in a drag race and will even spank an E46 M3 if the E46 still has an interior.
On top of that, I've had another E36 M3 since 2009 and do 99% of my own wrenching - I'm very familiar with these cars.
TLDR: You are not going to win a credibility challenge here. Do you think I'm going to take your advice on engine performance over my experience or Dave's? We've forgotten more about these cars than you've ever known.
Anybody who knows the BMW S52 (BTW, it's a 3.2, not a 3.0) knows it doesn't make a lot of power over 6000 RPM as the head just doesn't breath enough. The sweet RPM range is 4000-6000 RPM. Factory redline is 6500 RPM and this car's redline is extended to 7000 RPM. The purpose for this extension is just to keep the top end up high enough due to the 3.46 diff.
If you look at my video, you will see each slow 3rd gear corner results in at least 4000 RPM by track out. A 2nd gear downshift here would result in a need to upshift before track out. While the downshift may be free, the upshift will cost time. Given that there is likely more speed to be carried in these turns, going faster in 3rd is a better alternative to trying 2nd.
Dave, I'm sorry for the trouble.
-Mike
In addition, I'm just the second owner of that car and the way I received it was far from stock. Dave bought it brand new, bone stock, and over the years transformed it into what it is today. The only things I've done to the car is revert to a mechanical fan, put in an under tray, changed the seats, added throttle and brake to the data, and hardwired power for the camera and data. It is a joy to drive and doesn't have a single bad habit and has been very reliable. It outruns other E36 M3s in a drag race and will even spank an E46 M3 if the E46 still has an interior.
On top of that, I've had another E36 M3 since 2009 and do 99% of my own wrenching - I'm very familiar with these cars.
TLDR: You are not going to win a credibility challenge here. Do you think I'm going to take your advice on engine performance over my experience or Dave's? We've forgotten more about these cars than you've ever known.
Anybody who knows the BMW S52 (BTW, it's a 3.2, not a 3.0) knows it doesn't make a lot of power over 6000 RPM as the head just doesn't breath enough. The sweet RPM range is 4000-6000 RPM. Factory redline is 6500 RPM and this car's redline is extended to 7000 RPM. The purpose for this extension is just to keep the top end up high enough due to the 3.46 diff.
If you look at my video, you will see each slow 3rd gear corner results in at least 4000 RPM by track out. A 2nd gear downshift here would result in a need to upshift before track out. While the downshift may be free, the upshift will cost time. Given that there is likely more speed to be carried in these turns, going faster in 3rd is a better alternative to trying 2nd.
Dave, I'm sorry for the trouble.
-Mike
09-07-2016, 10:21 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Mike, i was automatically responding to your question . i know you and dave are pals, but he consistently bucks the logic that does prove to pay dividends.
i do know that the S50 or S52 can come in a 3,0 or 3.2 liter. i worked on, drove and help built M3s , even making a euro that ran 1:38s back in the day at laguna (e30s as well) . so, sorry ,until you have built a stock euro 3.2 that makes 290whp with near all stock stuff, i think i might have some knowledge about the platform..... even prepared and help build and work on a rare LWT euro for racing as well back in the day!
i assumed that yours was an S50 US. sorry about that
anyway,i posted the HP curves for your car in my last post.. as you can see, there is no "noise" at 6k and beyond... its more hp than the post shift, so its good to tach it out. but your defense of your 3rd gear rpm of 2900 saying that it ends up at track out of 4000rpm still is giving up HP (you are giving up 50hp right there alone!) . if you use 2nd there, you will end up shifting past track out birm, where you want to be on most shifts. if not, again, you are giving up 60-80hp. thats just a fact. thought i would be nice and offer it up to you
i understand your view of the HP curve, but if you look closely, you can see that i am correct in urging you to get into the higher RPM ranges. no different than you do on other turns there, i see. it doesnt matter that the power goes down after 6000rpm, as you now may know, as long as the power is greater there than the post shift power, it pays to stay higher in the revs. you dont need to be banging off the rev limiter, just be aware of the forces available to you. there is no sweet spot at 4-6 k RPM. its all up high so that your average HP is as high as possible.. The "sweetspot" is 5000 to 6500rpm. bottom line, you want to beat that time of yours, try my advice once. that alone will improve your time. as well as doing what you are doing after the carrocel. (dont upshift)
im not trying to battle for advice win here. just a very accurate observation that i hope someday , dave will incorporate it, but you are free to take or ignor the advice. its a discussion here and i do love the platfom . it does all that you say. surprises EVERYONE at the track with the amount of power and handling it has out of the box.
you wanted to know where you can improve.. i cited a few areas. no argument needed I hope you try it and report back. heck, what can it hurt?
i do know that the S50 or S52 can come in a 3,0 or 3.2 liter. i worked on, drove and help built M3s , even making a euro that ran 1:38s back in the day at laguna (e30s as well) . so, sorry ,until you have built a stock euro 3.2 that makes 290whp with near all stock stuff, i think i might have some knowledge about the platform..... even prepared and help build and work on a rare LWT euro for racing as well back in the day!
i assumed that yours was an S50 US. sorry about that
anyway,i posted the HP curves for your car in my last post.. as you can see, there is no "noise" at 6k and beyond... its more hp than the post shift, so its good to tach it out. but your defense of your 3rd gear rpm of 2900 saying that it ends up at track out of 4000rpm still is giving up HP (you are giving up 50hp right there alone!) . if you use 2nd there, you will end up shifting past track out birm, where you want to be on most shifts. if not, again, you are giving up 60-80hp. thats just a fact. thought i would be nice and offer it up to you
i understand your view of the HP curve, but if you look closely, you can see that i am correct in urging you to get into the higher RPM ranges. no different than you do on other turns there, i see. it doesnt matter that the power goes down after 6000rpm, as you now may know, as long as the power is greater there than the post shift power, it pays to stay higher in the revs. you dont need to be banging off the rev limiter, just be aware of the forces available to you. there is no sweet spot at 4-6 k RPM. its all up high so that your average HP is as high as possible.. The "sweetspot" is 5000 to 6500rpm. bottom line, you want to beat that time of yours, try my advice once. that alone will improve your time. as well as doing what you are doing after the carrocel. (dont upshift)
im not trying to battle for advice win here. just a very accurate observation that i hope someday , dave will incorporate it, but you are free to take or ignor the advice. its a discussion here and i do love the platfom . it does all that you say. surprises EVERYONE at the track with the amount of power and handling it has out of the box.
you wanted to know where you can improve.. i cited a few areas. no argument needed I hope you try it and report back. heck, what can it hurt?
Mark, stop it. We've had this discussion before and you're not adding anything. While I did post this here that also means I wanted input beyond you. I certainly did not post it to provide cannon fodder for you to kirbort another thread and attack a friend of mine. Furthermore, Dave has earned enough respect from me that I've actually paid him for his advice and bought his car pretty much sight unseen - I actually never drove it until I first took it to the track and only gave it a cursory glance when I picked it up - a month after I paid for it. The set of people I'd be willing to do that with is extremely small.
In addition, I'm just the second owner of that car and the way I received it was far from stock. Dave bought it brand new, bone stock, and over the years transformed it into what it is today. The only things I've done to the car is revert to a mechanical fan, put in an under tray, changed the seats, added throttle and brake to the data, and hardwired power for the camera and data. It is a joy to drive and doesn't have a single bad habit and has been very reliable. It outruns other E36 M3s in a drag race and will even spank an E46 M3 if the E46 still has an interior.
On top of that, I've had another E36 M3 since 2009 and do 99% of my own wrenching - I'm very familiar with these cars.
TLDR: You are not going to win a credibility challenge here. Do you think I'm going to take your advice on engine performance over my experience or Dave's? We've forgotten more about these cars than you've ever known.
Anybody who knows the BMW S52 (BTW, it's a 3.2, not a 3.0) knows it doesn't make a lot of power over 6000 RPM as the head just doesn't breath enough. The sweet RPM range is 4000-6000 RPM. Factory redline is 6500 RPM and this car's redline is extended to 7000 RPM. The purpose for this extension is just to keep the top end up high enough due to the 3.46 diff.
If you look at my video, you will see each slow 3rd gear corner results in at least 4000 RPM by track out. A 2nd gear downshift here would result in a need to upshift before track out. While the downshift may be free, the upshift will cost time. Given that there is likely more speed to be carried in these turns, going faster in 3rd is a better alternative to trying 2nd.
Dave, I'm sorry for the trouble.
-Mike
In addition, I'm just the second owner of that car and the way I received it was far from stock. Dave bought it brand new, bone stock, and over the years transformed it into what it is today. The only things I've done to the car is revert to a mechanical fan, put in an under tray, changed the seats, added throttle and brake to the data, and hardwired power for the camera and data. It is a joy to drive and doesn't have a single bad habit and has been very reliable. It outruns other E36 M3s in a drag race and will even spank an E46 M3 if the E46 still has an interior.
On top of that, I've had another E36 M3 since 2009 and do 99% of my own wrenching - I'm very familiar with these cars.
TLDR: You are not going to win a credibility challenge here. Do you think I'm going to take your advice on engine performance over my experience or Dave's? We've forgotten more about these cars than you've ever known.
Anybody who knows the BMW S52 (BTW, it's a 3.2, not a 3.0) knows it doesn't make a lot of power over 6000 RPM as the head just doesn't breath enough. The sweet RPM range is 4000-6000 RPM. Factory redline is 6500 RPM and this car's redline is extended to 7000 RPM. The purpose for this extension is just to keep the top end up high enough due to the 3.46 diff.
If you look at my video, you will see each slow 3rd gear corner results in at least 4000 RPM by track out. A 2nd gear downshift here would result in a need to upshift before track out. While the downshift may be free, the upshift will cost time. Given that there is likely more speed to be carried in these turns, going faster in 3rd is a better alternative to trying 2nd.
Dave, I'm sorry for the trouble.
-Mike
09-08-2016, 08:41 AM
#22
Drifting
Thread Starter
09-08-2016, 08:43 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
09-08-2016, 11:25 AM
#24
Drifting
Mike, I'm not an instructor just a student and overall you're a better more experienced driver than me. I also like your attitude on the board, always trying to learn.
That being said, you (like Mark said) should work on your hands. I see you opening up on a lot of turns and almost palming the wheel. I know any instructor that sat with me would point that out if I were doing it.
Keep the videos coming, I always learn a lot. Loved the analysis of the spin, and it helped me.
Jeff
That being said, you (like Mark said) should work on your hands. I see you opening up on a lot of turns and almost palming the wheel. I know any instructor that sat with me would point that out if I were doing it.
Keep the videos coming, I always learn a lot. Loved the analysis of the spin, and it helped me.
Jeff
09-08-2016, 12:50 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Everyone is a critic, but I'd offer the following based on what I've learned over the past few years
One of the good nuggets I've taken from this forum is always be trying to get just 5% throttle earlier - that's good advice here
I've never driven Cota in real life only sim and I've only tracked a e46 not 36 but I would suggest the following generic driving advice after watching you drive the car not the track
Brake initiation looks good and hard
Need to get car to rotate more from turn in to apex - some corners you are palming your way in suggests your not wrangling the car enough
When car is at max on a medium speed corner you may even find a few degrees of counter steering on way in once the brakes are turning the car for you
At apex can't see your eyes but if you try looking further out you likely will grab more throttle way earlier
Also don't know tires and traction limit but on those long sweepers on tires I'm familiar with you set the wheel and steer with the throttle I think this may yield you more cornering speed - should feel a gentle / or at first scary sensation of the car slipping and catching when it's at max
If VR has data from this car and this track would be cool to overlap here and take a look - I always personally find that helpful
One of the good nuggets I've taken from this forum is always be trying to get just 5% throttle earlier - that's good advice here
I've never driven Cota in real life only sim and I've only tracked a e46 not 36 but I would suggest the following generic driving advice after watching you drive the car not the track
Brake initiation looks good and hard
Need to get car to rotate more from turn in to apex - some corners you are palming your way in suggests your not wrangling the car enough
When car is at max on a medium speed corner you may even find a few degrees of counter steering on way in once the brakes are turning the car for you
At apex can't see your eyes but if you try looking further out you likely will grab more throttle way earlier
Also don't know tires and traction limit but on those long sweepers on tires I'm familiar with you set the wheel and steer with the throttle I think this may yield you more cornering speed - should feel a gentle / or at first scary sensation of the car slipping and catching when it's at max
If VR has data from this car and this track would be cool to overlap here and take a look - I always personally find that helpful
09-08-2016, 01:57 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
If the athletes and the coaches want to get better (because i feel drivers are athletes when they take to the track) , when there is an idea that fundamentally is sound, try it. Everyone on the team wins. Whats the worst case? you might be right and it doesnt work? Best case... you get faster...maybe a lot faster.
Back in the day, the Russians in sports were doing all sorts of things we in the US, swore, they would never work... guess what, they were right and we are doing much of them today! The message....... open your mind a little... try new things.. think! You will be a better coach and your students will benefit too!
09-08-2016, 03:24 PM
#27
Originally Posted by mark kibort
yes.... let's try and break this one and change "par". I will always advocate more power utilization. You will always say it's "Just noise", or" shift takes too long", or "wheel spin" Let's agree to disagree. Over 20 years, ive found this as the EASIEST time to gain on the track. It was my advice, no more no less. there are 1000s of things he can be doing better. i pointed out the most obvious (hands holding the wheel like he was serving tea to the queen, and downshift to 2nd and get out of the 100hp, 2900rpm range, on that one turn. There are 1000s of nuances you know about the track that you can help him with. Focus on that. And if you want to challenge Me,and maybe learn something, but we will take up valuable list discussion thread time!
If the athletes and the coaches want to get better (because i feel drivers are athletes when they take to the track) , when there is an idea that fundamentally is sound, try it. Everyone on the team wins. Whats the worst case? you might be right and it doesnt work? Best case... you get faster...maybe a lot faster.
Back in the day, the Russians in sports were doing all sorts of things we in the US, swore, they would never work... guess what, they were right and we are doing much of them today! The message....... open your mind a little... try new things.. think! You will be a better coach and your students will benefit too!
If the athletes and the coaches want to get better (because i feel drivers are athletes when they take to the track) , when there is an idea that fundamentally is sound, try it. Everyone on the team wins. Whats the worst case? you might be right and it doesnt work? Best case... you get faster...maybe a lot faster.
Back in the day, the Russians in sports were doing all sorts of things we in the US, swore, they would never work... guess what, they were right and we are doing much of them today! The message....... open your mind a little... try new things.. think! You will be a better coach and your students will benefit too!
I try hard to keep my rpm's up through corners. I have my first shift light come on at 4000. I am in an E46M3. My goal is to always keep at least that light on through any corner. More is better. So I either decide to downshift (to raise tach) or carry more speed.
I might short shift on a straight if it keeps me from having to do back to back down and up shift into a corner. Maybe if I was a better driver of feel more comfortable with extra shifts. I watch Eric Foss videos and he is working the gears constantly to stay at max power. So in general I think your advice there is good especially with the "traction" caveat that you typically add.
09-08-2016, 03:34 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Again, be that as it may, shifting to second there with the 3.46 rear would have resulted in wheel spin as it spins up super fast with the light flywheel, and would have required an up shift before or at track out. Both are counter productive. I have tried.
09-08-2016, 04:32 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Dave, you are talking 100hp exiting the turn.. if he cant handle (which im sure he can) 180hp exiting the turn, he doesnt belong on the track. but again, he can!
now, the light flywheel? Dave... havent we gone here before? the light flywheel is attached to the drivelinie, transmission and the tires and the ENTIRE car if you have grip! the only thing the flywheel helps to "rev up" is the engine when its in neutral for throttle blip engine match to transmission. . thats why you never see any HP gains on a rolling dyno with a lighten flywheel. well, in 2nd you might see a few, but thats it. it's a rounding error at best here and that's fact. (ive already provided all the equations for equating flywheel mass reduction to HP and to overall vehicle weight reduction and very easy to prove )
now, you go find a video of you hitting track out with using 2nd at that turn.
you have a "feeling" and i would bet that its a little off. my suggestion, and its a good one, is to use 2nd and hit the exit as grip allows and run the engine at a 60-80hp greater range for a couple of seconds. That will allow for a small gain on his lap time. that coupled with many other things will drop his lap time significantly.
