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I'm not sure I'm the "authority" but we are 1 of the 4 Master Warehouse Distributors for Pagid so we get visits here in Corpus, at COTA and at distributor meetings like we had at PRI last year. I listen, ask questions of the folks that know WAY more than me and of course we get feedback from the individuals and teams that we supply pads to. So, let me try to relay what I know based off all of that...if you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree. We'll still be happy to supply your Pagid Pads no matter what :-)
The ABS module has a small pump that can increase line pressure beyond what the driver can contribute. That's what keeps the pedal from sinking to the floor as the ABS is dropping line pressures. Part of the reason the temps go up is that each wheel is doing the absolute maximum braking it can do (all the time) as compared to non ABS where you have to modulate the brakes to prevent lock up.
In the Pirelli World Challenge, tests have shown the increase in stopping power is significant (2.0G deceleration with ABS vs. 1.6G without). Granted, this is a modern ABS system. So now, for example, we've taken a 5 second braking zone and made it a 4 second braking zone but we're still converting the same amount of Kinetic energy. Needless to say, the pad temperatures increase.
The problem with increased wear rate, is that the pump doesn’t adjust to a reduced pad friction level. It doesn’t analyze the line pressure needed to hold the tire at maximum, it just goes as high as it can (or always does), and if the pad fades below the point where that elevated line pressure is at the limit of adhesion, THAT’s the point where the driver might notice a lack of braking power, (because the ABS will stop engaging) and the car slows at a slower rate than previously achieved.
Endurance pads in general, prefer to run cooler than sprint pads. The materials used in these compounds are gentler to the discs, and last longer when kept in the correct temperature range. Increase the heat much, and you’ve increased the wear rate. Sprint compounds aren’t as temperature sensitive, but they wear faster.
On a non ABS car that is experiencing fade, the driver normally adjusts his braking point or spends less time in the draft to get more cooling air to the brakes. With ABS, by the time the driver notices fade the pads are far beyond their peak temperature level and they're basically cooked.
Thats just the "ramble " i was looking for. i dont think sales gives you any credibiility , but what you say, does. something dave just doesnt get yet.
as i said and mentioned, there are many ABS systems... humans can beat most of the old stuff (good drivers) and not many can beat the newest high frequency ABS sstems. that is your point. yes, i agree, IF the ABS can beat the human, then, there will be higher temps, because you are more at the limit of the tires.
I like that you brought the KE factor in there. that is key.... yes, WC has cars that have the best of the ABS system and not many of us here have those . taking a 5 second braking event and making it a 4 second, dumps a lot more heat in the rotor, and that can be by a skilled foot or a better ABS system. however, my point and others here was, if the ABS is not better than the skilled foot, then ABS is actuallly less heat in the rotor and pad and ABS will NOT cause more heat in the pads. so, it is driver and ABS system dependant. i think we agree, right??
now, as far as pads, ive used pagid blacks for many years, but was getting fade badly. did a few things to fix this (KE change was just too great for the pads, and temps were 1400f) so, larger rotors by 5% and aluminum hats along with PFC11 pads... fade issues for 5 years fixed.
thanks for chiming in. no on that speaks logic and reason ,will ever get a hard time from me. i dont think we disagree. however, if you say one thing, Dave will take that too the bank. he is one fact, all cases, kind of guy! so , be careful, that's how bum information is spread.
Originally Posted by Jason @ Paragon Products
I'm not sure I'm the "authority" but we are 1 of the 4 Master Warehouse Distributors for Pagid so we get visits here in Corpus, at COTA and at distributor meetings like we had at PRI last year. I listen, ask questions of the folks that know WAY more than me and of course we get feedback from the individuals and teams that we supply pads to. So, let me try to relay what I know based off all of that...if you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree. We'll still be happy to supply your Pagid Pads no matter what :-)
The ABS module has a small pump that can increase line pressure beyond what the driver can contribute. That's what keeps the pedal from sinking to the floor as the ABS is dropping line pressures. Part of the reason the temps go up is that each wheel is doing the absolute maximum braking it can do (all the time) as compared to non ABS where you have to modulate the brakes to prevent lock up.
In the Pirelli World Challenge, tests have shown the increase in stopping power is significant (2.0G deceleration with ABS vs. 1.6G without). Granted, this is a modern ABS system. So now, for example, we've taken a 5 second braking zone and made it a 4 second braking zone but we're still converting the same amount of Kinetic energy. Needless to say, the pad temperatures increase.
The problem with increased wear rate, is that the pump doesn’t adjust to a reduced pad friction level. It doesn’t analyze the line pressure needed to hold the tire at maximum, it just goes as high as it can (or always does), and if the pad fades below the point where that elevated line pressure is at the limit of adhesion, THAT’s the point where the driver might notice a lack of braking power, (because the ABS will stop engaging) and the car slows at a slower rate than previously achieved.
Endurance pads in general, prefer to run cooler than sprint pads. The materials used in these compounds are gentler to the discs, and last longer when kept in the correct temperature range. Increase the heat much, and you’ve increased the wear rate. Sprint compounds aren’t as temperature sensitive, but they wear faster.
On a non ABS car that is experiencing fade, the driver normally adjusts his braking point or spends less time in the draft to get more cooling air to the brakes. With ABS, by the time the driver notices fade the pads are far beyond their peak temperature level and they're basically cooked.
If you engage ABS a lot on dry tracks, you're doing something sub optimal ...
so, according to Jason, engagnig ABS takes 5 second normal braking zones with out ABS and makes them 4 second braking zones.
how is this "suboptimal"... jason, you agreed with david as well.
you cant have your cake and eat it too here!
many hear understand wear at the limit of performance, but lets not mislead anyone in to thinking that driving your car to the limit suddenly requires different pads. it can, but not always. AND, if that limit is higher with ABS it certainly wouldnt be suboptimal, as the fastest drivers get right in to the modern ABS systems at all points on a track where its possible and needed.
if not, they would be the same drivers that short shift their cars , even though there is more HP at redline than post shift.
so, according to Jason, engagnig ABS takes 5 second normal braking zones with out ABS and makes them 4 second braking zones.
how is this "suboptimal"... jason, you agreed with david as well.
you cant have your cake and eat it too here!
many hear understand wear at the limit of performance, but lets not mislead anyone in to thinking that driving your car to the limit suddenly requires different pads. it can, but not always. AND, if that limit is higher with ABS it certainly wouldnt be suboptimal, as the fastest drivers get right in to the modern ABS systems at all points on a track where its possible and needed.
if not, they would be the same drivers that short shift their cars , even though there is more HP at redline than post shift.
Good lord, Mark...his example was very specific to the $15,000 motorsport ABS systems being used in PWC. Not too many folks reading this race in PWC or have one of those systems...whic are fantastic and nearly unobtrusive.
For everyone else, using street ABS, no, this following claim of yours is simply not true: " the fastest drivers get right in to the modern ABS systems at all points on a track where its possible".
As Jason said, if you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree...
Good lord, Mark...his example was very specific to the $15,000 motorsport ABS systems being used in PWC. Not too many folks reading this race in PWC or have one of those systems...whic are fantastic and nearly unobtrusive.
For everyone else, using street ABS, no, this following claim of yours is simply not true: " the fastest drivers get right in to the modern ABS systems at all points on a track where its possible".
As Jason said, if you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree...
There was no disagreement .... Dave, comprehension has never been your strong suit. read what you said and what he said.... o m g!!
are you for real??
EXACTLY... his example was for the 15, motorsport systems. all other systems will NOT inuduce more heat... you can be so thick headed!
And again, not reading or comprehending, everyone else shouldn't use the ABS because it is slower. and it produces LESS heat when used because it is slower and works the tires less.. that's fine if you want to stay confused. we all get it , but you .... enjoy!
Somehow I figured we'd get to this point....Sigh. As my dad taught me, sometimes it's better to say "Perhaps you're right" and move on. Over and out :-)
Somehow I figured we'd get to this point....Sigh. As my dad taught me, sometimes it's better to say "Perhaps you're right" and move on. Over and out :-)
Holy smokes, you hit the nail on the head... Over and out, too. To paraphrase Cool Hand Luke, some men you just can't reach.
Holy smokes, you hit the nail on the head... Over and out, too. To paraphrase Cool Hand Luke, some men you just can't reach.
oh brother. you say that ABS increases heat categorically.
1. Jason says that it does because of modern ABS sytems being able to work the brakes harder than humanly possible.
2. you take that as All ABS systems work the brakes harder...
3. you then say that getting into ABS is bad when jason says that its able to slow the car better than humanly possible.
3. you then agree with jason, to some how prove your on his same level and then close with a put down..... same same same.... somethings never change Dave. your a funny guy!
Dave, do you remember the short shft discussion. you use the opposite discussion technique there. There, you have been saying short shifting has been something you have promoted all along. i say" it depends on gears and HP curve shape" . Russ says that " a lot of cars". the fact is , it depends , just like the ABS analysis.
few cars have ABS that can work the brakes harder than a good driver. those drivers shouldnt get into ABS if they can avoid it. ABS wont heat the brakes , in fact, will cool the brakes because there is less braking force. the very modern brake ABS systems can work better and slow the car more, and those can induce more heat.
So you guys are saying these reduce heat on the outer edges of the pad for abs, and the rotor actually induces ice which is where the ice pedal thing came from.
But if I switch to these
I will never have to buy brake pads again cause the inertIA saved at threshold braking actually bring the pad material from dust back to solid.
So you guys are saying these reduce heat on the outer edges of the pad for abs, and the rotor actually induces ice which is where the ice pedal thing came from.
But if I switch to these
I will never have to buy brake pads again cause the inertIA saved at threshold braking actually bring the pad material from dust back to solid.
So you guys are saying these reduce heat on the outer edges of the pad for abs, and the rotor actually induces ice which is where the ice pedal thing came from.
But if I switch to these
I will never have to buy brake pads again cause the inertIA saved at threshold braking actually bring the pad material from dust back to solid.
oh, you are talking about your abs, not "ABS"!!!! I get it ! Then, yes, you need to work on your abs and more incline sit ups will help and work them harder!
Got to work hard to keep our girlish figures!!
07-26-2016, 07:33 PM
