JP66

So this may be old hat to some, and perhaps it's an unspoken and impolite topic to bring up, but today is my first day on a new track with a new club. (new to me) Point is the club is full of people giving advice generously, and yet the fastest lap I timed with my iPhone in the Red and Black groups was not faster than the SP1 lap record.

Next I would comment on my instruction which was fun and definitely informative, but at the end of the day I 'm watching video of "racing" and I realize in two corners I'm leaving more than 10 mph of speed unused and everyone including my instructor seems ok with that plus absolutely no one I spoke with was using data or timing their laps.

Now before everyone goes ballistic just let me say I know this is a hobby and the whole point is to have fun, I'm simply saying that I realized today for the first time that there is an ENORMOUS difference in what folks take as "standard" and how precise clubs are in their understanding of "fast".

So am I once again out here alone in this thought or have others come to the same conclusion that PCA DEs are fun, but not really the place to learn "racing"?

And, finally I just want to emphasize that this is the internet, and I am simply saying what's on my mind with the full knowledge that this may "hit a nerve" or make some angry, but my point is not that I have any answers or that my observation is even correct. I am simply making an observation and then waiting to learn from the response. It may be that I am missing some critical points.

Lastly I would note that I am running time in my R faster than my instructor in a GT4.

Olemiss540

Why are you not racing again? Same question, but insert "instructing" in place of racing.

Sounds like you have a bright future in motorsport.

You do realize that HPDE is not racing? Did they cover that in the drivers meeting?

ProCoach

I know some folks are going to burst an oil filter in high dudgeon in response, but I understand and take seriously your question.

"Fast" is a completely relative and subjective valuation, unless data and the stopwatch can quantify it. You may well be faster in your Cayman R than your instructor in his GT4, but I guarantee there are drivers, WHO DON'T RACE, that could driver circles around you both, in lesser cars. And incidentally, they may be good instructors, too! Machts Nichts.

I think you are mistaking a broad range of driver's objectives for differences in organizational approach.

There are MANY more people who do DE and have no interest in exploring closer to the edge of their car's capabilities than there are racers who do. Some DE drivers progress quite well, to near club race record speeds, over the course of years... Does that make DE any "less" than racing? No, in my mind it does not.

In order to race well, you MUST be able to drive the car and know the car's capabilities WITHOUT THINKING about it, so that you can reserve brain activity for strategic thinking. Many racers have honed their skills at DE for years before racing in a competitive event.

There are WAY too many variables to be making lap time comparisons between race records and DE lap times. Traffic density, passing rules, relative experience of the group and individuals within that group.

I see cars at DMTD and Chin that probably would be more comfortable in the group you were with today, and I see drivers at the same events that are close to or setting class record times, WITH POINT BY'S. Your organization that you attended today was not one of those kind of venues!

The only thing I can tell you is that the quality of execution, knowledge, confidence and, let's face it, competence, varies incredibly in this sport. Speed doesn't always equal quality.

While the level of those qualities is generally much higher in competitive events (because racers push more, devote more time and effort, as well as the fact that risk averse people tend NOT to gravitate towards competitive events, but instead towards DE), you should resist the temptation to "buttonhole" drivers, instructors and organizations based solely on lap times. That's a real red herring...

Is racing "better" than DE's? For those who choose racing, sure. My lady (started DE's in a 951 and progressed quickly to historic racing) asked another lady driver at the VIR Club Race why she was interested only in doing DE's (and she is quite good). My lady seemed not to "compute" the answer and said that as someone who had done racing, she would never "go back" to DE's. I chided her! And said that I thought she could only speak for herself! It was a quiet ride home from the track, but you get the idea.

There's room for everyone in this sport...

LuigiVampa

First off, I don't think you have to apologize for what you are saying. There are racing snobs who think DE is boring and DE snobs who think everyone who races is an a$$hat.

I came up through the DE ranks and started racing over a years ago. I'm also pretty far along into instructor training with PCA in the CVR region.

My opinion is that Peter is pretty spot on in his observations, but so are you. If you want to generalize, which is a dangerous thing to do, I think many of the faster people are the racers. That being said, there are a few guys in DE who are awesome drivers, faster than some racers, who just choose not to. So it is hard to generalize.

I've raced with other regions and witnessed a wide variety of skill level. I had one instance where I was still in white (HPDE 3), and was faster than just about everyone in my old 944 at a track I had never been to. There were also hardly any Porsches at this PCA event which shocked me because CVR is Porsche only at Lime Rock and that is what I am used to.

Some racers that I hang with think I am crazy for still doing the DEs and even more crazy for wanted to become an instructor. In my mind racing and DE are two different things. DE is where I hang with my friends, talk trash at the end of the day, and have a beer. Race is where I put on my game face but it is still about hanging out with other racers and the crew at the end of the day.

There are regions, like CVR, that are very strict with advancement and instructors, and other regions and groups that are less so. I like the consistency of CVR so that is where I drive most of the time. When I was still a white driver I was asked to instruct for another region. I declined saying I didn't have the training and they were upset with me. It made me feel bad at the time but now that I have been though national training, and have been on a bunch of mentoring rides, I realize I made the right decision.

Last thing is that racing has removed any trace of red mist that I may have had at DE. I am so f-ing relaxed at DE it is amazing. I'm there just to have fun and that is it.

Bottom line - you get out what you put in.

ProCoach

Awesome post and my experience, too.

winders

It's a DE event. People are not supposed to be out there driving at 10/10ths. Maybe all the fast guys didn't show or maybe going as fast as possible is not their goal.

Well, many DE instructors tend to teach a later apex line than many racers might take. These leave extra room for error and means you can't go quite as fast as you might otherwise. Factor in the fact that you should be driving less than 10/10ths and being 10 mph slower is not that big of a deal, even if you are on the "racing line". DE's are more about doing it "right" than are about doing it as fast as possible. What is "right" for a DE driver may not be "right" for a racer. Not everyone uses lap timer and data and that is okay. DE events are not supposed to be time events and not everyone wants to hassle sifting through data.

DE ≠ Racing

DE's are a good place to learn how to drive. The on;y way to learn how to race is to race.

I am not sure what you expected but nothing you observed surprises me.

This means nothing. If instructors had to better or have more talent than their students, Rory McIlroy would not have or need a swing coach. Being faster than your instructor does not mean you know more or have more knowledge.

porschedog

Guys who think a DE is racing are bad juju on the track. Just sayin'

Frank 993 C4S

Everybody has different objectives on the track and that's ok and you need to be tolerant of this. Plus, in DE and racing different people have a different appetite for taking risk and you need to be tolerant of that too. Also, DE should never be misconstrued for learning to race - it is about mastering car control without having to think about it.

Racing is all about strategy and managing your proximity to other cars through awareness, whether behind or ahead of you. The fastest lap time will not win you a race. Having the average fastest lap time will - think about it! On average, for each race day, I spend about 3 days in DEs on that track to practice and work on car set-up. That's probably over-preparing but that's the way I approach it and DE is a great environment to do that in.

If you are frustrated about DE, don't race because your frustrations will only increase and you'll end up making bad decisions in anger. Racing is all about co-existence in a less regulated environment than DE.

Frank 993 C4S

... Double post.

JP66

Totally LOVE the comments. It is so hard on the internet to emphasize what you want and get folks to understand what I am trying to say. I know 100% a good Spec Miata can run circles around me in my R all day, and I mention lap times only as a data point to bring up the topic of racing versus DE. I think your comments plus Luigi's comments help me better see the realization I just got today . . . DE is or can be VERY VERY VERY different from racing training. Somehow I just assumed that if you were into DE, you wanted to race someday, but clearly that is not the case, and for me that makes a difference in what I expect to learn in different venues. The venue I'm at today is fun and I am meeting great folks, but I do not think I am learning much about how to "race" on this course someday in the future.


You had so any awesome points and I don't want to take away from any. I read every word twice, but I just wanted to say "thank you" because clearly you get the gist of my learning curve and are helping me focus my lessons without getting angry at my speaking my thoughts.

Thank you!



For everyone else reading this remember I'm still somewhat new to this entire hobby and so what may be obvious to you:

DE does not equal Racing

was only today obvious to me so where as I thought DE drivers were inherently racers in training, now I realize that is not true. I am not judging either category, I am just saying it's a new realization.

Really the question becomes do "racers" find high value in DE instruction or not?

Thundermoose

OP - you may want to consider doing Time Trials with NASA. It's a good intermediate step between DE's and Wheel to Wheel Racing. You get gridded according to lap times so the guy in front of you is a tad faster and serves as a bit of a rabbit (and the guy behind you is thinking the same thing about you).

DE is not racing (I don't mean this in snobby way since TT isn't either), as the objectives are slightly different. Sure everyone wants to improve on their lap times in DE, but my experience is that the instructors want you to learn and embed the fundamentals and most don't want to be in the right seat when you try to drive 11/10ths.

Also, you may want to start posting videos. The coaches and other members on here are very good about pointing out things to help you go faster. I no longer have a right seat, but between some video comments from VR and TexasRS, I have been able to find several seconds.

As others mentioned, I found Chin to be one of the best DE outfits out there for "going fast." PCA in my region usually has a lot of cars and its hard to get clean laps. I have never been with DMTD but I hear they are even better than Chin.

Matt Lane

Sorry, but sorting through the blah blah blah, you are perhaps too excellent for your local DE and instructor. Since PCA Drivers Education is neither timed, nor a place to learn racing, not sure what to add here.

Best,

Matt

Streak

Think of it like a ladder system. PCA really makes it easy to progress into racing. I started auto crossing with my local chapter and shortly moved into the DE program and a few years later jumped into club racing. Lots of people think like you. They do want to move into racing. Use DE to learn as much as the program allows you. Track awareness, car control, passing, expanded passing. Seat time is king. Take advantage of it as DE seat time is CHEAP!!! You will learn how to race when you race. Talk to your chief instructor and your instructors to let them know that is your goal. It makes a difference. I'm no ProCoach but I can tell you unequivocally that if a student tells me their goal is racing I will push them harder from the right seat. Speak up and your chief can pair you with someone to help you meet your goals.

I remember thinking all the racers were cheaters because I was **** hot as DE driver but several seconds slower than everyone in my class in my first few races. In fact I have some funny video of me getting schooled by a pair of Miatas in my 1986 Carrera. But I got faster. Racing does make you faster.

There are just circumstances in a race that do not and should not present themselves in the DE environment. DE is not timed so the insurance rates don't classify it as a competitive event or some other such excuse. That's what I have been told in the past. You have to wait for passing signals and the like so the opportunity to lay down a clean lap totally unobstructed is very rare. For all you know the car you timed may have been balked by a slower car entering any corner anywhere on that lap.

Don't count out car prep either. A well driven and prepared SP2 car will surprise a lot of people. Suspension settings, lower weight, Hoosiers. All of it can shatter the "it's just a 944 how's he catching me in my 996?!?!?!"

Don't be shy about your goals. I look forward to seeing you at a club race one day soon.

wildcat077

Just to add my point of view ... i participated in DE's for 6 or 7 years with an 89 911 which was well sorted and decided three years ago that i really didn't feel like putting it into a tire wall , so i got a 944 SP2 car which i have been racing with for the last three seasons and i wouldn't cry if it fell off a bridge as compared to my 911 in which i invested a lot of money.

To get to the point, i still love doing DE's with my friends that i've known for many years.I just slip on a muffler on the race car in order to pass sound and have fun in the Black run group among a fleet of GT3 RS's and Cayman R's and S's ,most of which respect my slower momentum car except in the twisties when i'm on their bumpers !
A lot of people i race with started their passion because of DE's and they all attended an appropriate race school in order to get a racing licence, we even have a bunch of racers who are PCA instructors and are happy to share their knowledge with their students.

You are the one behind the wheel of your car ... do you really want to be "that guy " who put it in a tire wall or sent somebody off track during a DE ?

GentlemanRacer

I think Luigi sums it up best!
It's a long process and well worth it if you have a passion for the sport. There are so many unexpected learning experiences along the way, and not just the narrow focus on lap times. The first 2 wheels off, the next four wheels off, the tail wagging, the coolant explosion, running out of fuel on the back straight ..oops . All the lunch chatter, the beer chatter, instructors in your car, racers in your car. It all leads up to you gaining experience and more importantly, insight! Sometimes the fastest lap times come when you aren't looking (no pun intended) and when you fell so relaxed that you think "I am too slow".

As Frank said, racing and DE, require different focus, but are just different spectrums of the same craft. Learn all you can, where you can and enjoy YOUR experience. And time and finances allowing, broaden your venues and perhaps who you run with.

These guys on this forum have so much knowledge, I really think we could all benefit from them writing a book or two. I would line up to buy!

Good luck