JP66

That is great to hear! I'd hate to think that "destroying" a car is inevitable although I will admit I bought an SP2 car as my first race car just so the pain of losing it (not that I plan on that!) would be bearable.

ProCoach

I agree with docwyte on his in-car priorities. I am not suggesting instructors take the time, unless they have the time.

I just don't agree you need a "racing coach" (or a racing venue) to WANT (and get) a few more tenths. A good instructor, teaching effectively, can impart and refine the skills, knowledge and execution prompts to do just that!

I REALLY don't agree with those that ARE trying to "find time" necessarily compromise the DE environment, as long as they follow the rules and the culture. That's all.

Agreed. And that s how the most progressive regions do it. Like CVR.

On the latter, there are more and more clubs and individual regions that are bringing in folks like Peter A., Ross and I to talk specifically to higher (including instructor) run groups about advanced technique and, dare I say it, "racecraft."

The shame is that I have heard this year, more than any time in the past, frustration by black and red drivers who share that "once they're solo status, the mentoring, continuing education and development resources stop."

Accurate assessment and a more realistic expectation.

IMO, it's not optimal for some DE organizers, staff and instructors to scorn the mention of "racing." This "line of separation" can be cast in a positive light, not in the current, prevailing negative light.

I misunderstood, then. That's NOT what I call the "racing line." That's the "passing line."

The "racing line" to me is the quickest, most efficient and geometrically least challenging to the maintenance of momentum and progressive application of throttle. Turn in is often earlier than the "DE" or "school" line, apexes are longer and generally, all of the width of the road is used, unless otherwise indicated. It's what you do to try and drive "the perfect lap."

And THAT GOAL doesn't know the difference between DE and racing...

sbelles

Yes, that was my point too. There is no difference except that DE students often have it drilled into them that there is only one line for all circumstances.

ProCoach

Got it. Thanks, and agree with that observation.

It's a shame that so many "advanced" students and instructors are needing to "unlearn" the stepped process most DE programs teach. That goes for line, straight-line versus trail-braking, braking technique in general, ad infinitum...

ExMB

The way it came across to me was different than your corrections now which was the "for hire" reference I made. You are correct that a student can move to an advanced instructor for refinement, but to expect it as a blanket statement is incorrect. Students in a DE environment will progress if they listen, pay attention, etc, etc. during their time with their instructor. But your comment about instructors needing to take the time to learn about the new data stuff available and using it with a student was taking it too far IMHO (you didn't choose to quote that in your reply). That expectation I reserve for a "for hire" instructor instead of a "volunteer". IMHO students will pay more attention to an instructor if they have a financial involvement beyond the event fee when compared to none.

sbelles

Yep, and most have to learn those "advanced" techniques on their own since they will never see a classroom or even have an instructor once they are signed off to a solo group. I'd like to see more focus on actually teaching advanced students.

winders

Doesn't that depend where a student is in the DE cycle and what their skill level is? I know when I used to instruct at motorcycle Rider's Ed events I tended to teach a more conservative line (later apex than I would qualify on) with more room for error to students whose skill level was not relatively high. I mean the goal is different at different levels, right?

Of course, when I instructed new motorcycle racers coming up from the Rider's Ed ranks, the hardest thing to drill out of their heads was that damn late apex Rider's Ed line. Second most difficult was getting them to actively practice on non-standard lines so they new what to expect from the track when they had to go fast on parts the track not normally used in Rider's Ed.

Veloce Raptor

Agreed.

Down here in Texas, the various PCA regions that put on DE events have a specific group of Advanced Instructors to fill this void

sbelles

It does but what most early students are told is the most important thing is the consistency of their line. That's important of course but it doesn't mean that you can never go offline. As far as turning in earlier and trail braking, I think most learn it by accident. As they get their braking pushed later, they end up turning while still releasing the brake without knowing that they are doing it. I've had students who were surprised when I told them that they were no longer braking in a straight line and that it was a good thing. It's not that people can't learn these things on their own, I just think it would be better if they received some consistent training in how and why.

ExMB

+1

I have used that option numerous times to improve myself (I think ). Shout out to MAV PCA to offer that option to those that attend their events.

ProCoach

Agree with the first part. I guess the second part is true. Maybe I am spoiled. I don't think about the distinction much. A good instructor is a good instructor, and there are many. I apologize if I sounded like I had some attitude, I don't.

The way you took it is the risk I make posting when I earn my living doing this. I do have the luxury of allocating pure, undivided time, and it does require bringing my own set of tools that can cost up to $6K to every engagement.

No one needs data or video. But the objective measure of a driver's performance is a great, great tool. More and more intermediate and advanced drivers, not to mention instructors and racers, are using these tools and using them to "self coach" VERY effectively.

I don't think I am in "competition" with anyone, I'm just another resource. I work more collaboratively (inquiry-based leaning) than the conventional instructor>student relationship. I develop strategies that are highly targeted towards addressing particular opportunities for improvement behind the wheel negotiating the track, just like every other instructor out there. I do have the benefit of learning much more quickly about what "key" opens the door to learning for the folks I am with because I have that luxury of time. Plus, most all of the folks I work with are black/red/instructors or racers.

Folks like Chris Hall, Pete Argetsinger, Grant Maiman, Ryan Lewis, Greg Liefooghe, Seth Thomas, Tom Long, John Lewis, Cass Whitehead, Eric Foss and a few others are just alternate resources, ones that generally place a high premium on listening rather than talking.

Of course, you wouldn't know it by my posts, though!

User 52121

Very true... and I went through this as I progressed through the racing ranks (on 2-wheels). From the beginner "DE" groups, up through advanced, up through amateur license, to expert license, to pro license... the first few times I moved up, I went in thinking "I got this" only to get my butt handed to me....

Funny once I went in EXPECTING to get my butt handed to me, my progression at that level accelerated MUCH more quickly than previous levels where I went in thinking I was gonna rule the roost...


I'd tweak that a little. I'd not necessarily say you should EXPECT to destroy your car... but IMO, you should be *willing* to, should the need arise. At some point you may find yourself faced with a choice: (a) t-bone the sideways car in front of you in the driver's door or (b) run off track and take a glancing blow to the tire wall... and you will instead try for (c) which is "none of the above", only to later learn that there WAS NO CHOICE C and instead wound up taking a head-on blow to armco while trying to avoid everything.

I've seen a lot of bad wrecks (both 2-wheeled and 4) from people who try to take the unavailable "hit nothing and come out unscathed" option, which instead leads them into much worse scenarios. Being aware and willing to take a hit in the name of safety is essential.


Love these. Stealing them.

One BIG difference between DE and Racing is summed up PERFECTLY by ProCoach's first post in this thread:

Fast laps does not equal a fast, winning racer.

I have a close friend on my Lemons team who still struggles with this. PCA black group level DE driver, talented, quick, safe, also a budding PCA Club Racer. Once thrown in a racing environment, really struggles. They are still focusing their concentration on driving the car. They're still ACTIVELY thinking "brake", "turn", "gas". Once you throw in open passing, a car dive-bombing, or their need to get around someone... it all falls apart. An inside pass turns into a tire-smoke, 4-wheel-lockup, sliding-off-the-track event. They get held up behind a significantly slower driver because once they have to break concentration and focus on the other car, their pace falls off, they start going off track, locking up tires, having spins, etc.

The driving part has to become automatic, autopilot, background tasks. Your concentration and focus is on the other cars around you, on strategizing, on how to catch/pass/hold off the other cars.

THAT is why I think a lot of "racers" find DE boring. The FUN of racing isn't in going around the track... it's the strategy, the dogfight, the "outsmart and out drive the other guy". All the actual "driving" is actually background task. Since DE is just about going around the track, and none of the strategy, it can be tough to stay entertained.

And if you guys think the snobbery is bad from racers looking down on DE... try being a fan of autocross LOL...

ExMB

Its the interweb

ProCoach

TXE36

About 50% of my natural trail brakers don't know they are doing it either. I will point it out to them and explain the benefits and hazards of doing it.

One of my recent students trail braked very well but when she figured out a particularly fast corner the braking zone for the next corner got "interesting". Carrying much more speed and responding to my "brake Brake BRAKE" command she hit the brakes pretty hard, but with the steering wheel turned - PSM is a wonderful thing. It ended up being a great teaching moment and a good lesson on not getting cocky.

-Mike