ProCoach

Man, I have raced for thirty years (and won more than 200 races) and I have NEVER destroyed my (or anyone elses) car. I DON'T think that is inevitable. It does suck to crash, however, and I have done that...

What happened at VIR? Back of the car looked "crispy." It was good to see you out there, for awhile.

winders

Simply untrue. This does indeed happen to some people. But you statement is far too inclusive.

It certainly is possible that you car will get totaled but it is a relative few to which this happens.

Veloce Raptor

Actually this may be heresy to some...but when I am in-car coaching (or instructing as a volunteer) my #1 priority is MY safety. Which pretty much assures the driver's safety as well...

ProCoach

Good on the former (we all do that), but I think you're falling foul of the "analyzing data" part of it.

I'm not a "race coach." I'm a "driver performance analyst." That's my job. I'm not looking for a lap time improvement, I'm looking for better quality execution of fundamental skills, JUST LIKE YOU ARE. As you say, the times come after that and as a byproduct.

Like you, I evaluate the performance of my student/client, then guide in the direction I feel that #1) respects their desired risk exposure (generally nil) and #2) will net them the highest quality (and global) improvement for the next session.

Instructors should be open to using tools like data (in my case, primarily "intelligent video") to review with their student what happened in the car and allow education of and elucidation to the student/client AWAY from the distractions present when driving the car. Stark, objective and non-judgmental measures, captured by simple and readily available tools, help the process for many.

Is it good for all? Heck, no. But after the first TWENTY YEARS of being STUCK in DE instruction progress, I have lived through a groundswell of students and instructors in the last decade looking for (and now capable of) a FAR more objective, less subjective evaluation and review of driver performance. That's what we should ALL strive for...

Agree, safety is number ONE.

On the latter, no, he has NOTHING to gain looking for tenths. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about making sure that instructors help their students execute fundamental skills the BEST they can, which in turn ensures a safer learning environment for BOTH the instructor AND the student.

The common theme is the variability of the type and quality of information fed to students (and hewn to by instructors, mostly through oral history ) within events but more often between groups that run events, particularly DE.

We can ALL do better AND improve event safety if we control our expectations, maintain a calm and open demeanor and open our minds to using the great tools and resources we have available, BOTH human and technological, to do better. That's all.

fleadh

I started in HPDE's in street cars and only moved on because my goals changed. There was lots of fun to be had playing with my street cars at the track with my buddies, but for me, I grew up a racer.. so once I had the time and resources (and after I did a Lemons race with some friends!) I knew I'd at least dip my feet into the racing side. Once I did, it felt like home.

For me it's not that you progress into racing from HPDE's, it's just a path that's available if you choose to take it. Apart from the physical act of driving a 4-wheeled vehicle while wearing a helmet, they're completely different disciplines in my opinion. The goals, mindsets, priorities and preparation are very different -- at least that's how I approach it.

I've still done occasional HPDE days in a street car with friends at the local tracks, but I just don't find it as fun as flogging a pure race car (mostly due to safety equipment).

-mike

TXE36

Heresy? Sounds like it's the right attitude to have. If you ever see me instructing one of my students and we are hauling *** it isn't because I want my student to get that last 10th, it is because I am comfortable.

My two favorite opening lines to a new student:

"Don't try to impress me, you can't. Don't try to scare me, I already am."

The second works really well for checkout rides:

"There are only two things you can do to impress me. They are both bad."

In the end I'm not sure what is more fun, driving myself or taking somebody shy or challenging and getting them safely to the pointy end of the run group all the while with them sporting that permagrin.

-Mike

Streak

Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be a lot of comments that seem to dissuade the OP from expressing his racing goals in a DE. I for one don't think it's inappropriate as long as he/she is not attempting to race during the DE. After all the club racing criteria specifies some number of DE days before you can be considered for club race. DE is where you get your club race check out ride. DE is a feeder. I certainly used it that way.

Assuming all the caveats about safety for both the instructor, the driver and everyone else on track as have been mentioned I think it's OK to have the racing discussion if that is the student's goal. For example, something I see a lot in DE groups at every level at Summit Point is people only tracking out to mid track coming out of the chute into T5. If my student is exhibiting a degree of car control that gives me confidence and has expressed his interest in going club racing I would have the discussion about what happens in the brake zone for T5 in a racing scenario and maybe push him/her a bit there. In other words if you leave that gap you will lose your position in the blink of an eye. Many DE'rs aren't carrying enough speed to track all the way out but a guy looking to race can file that little tidbit away for the future.

Another good example might be South Bend at VIR. In a DE no one is passing you there. In a race it's a place to be on your toes big time.

Both those little bits of info can also help the aspiring racer become more track aware as in a DE he/she doesn't really have to worry about faster traffic or class position battles coming out of the last "S" It goes to the "eyes in the back of your head" aspect of racing that is critically important.

Make no mistake, it is DE not race practice. But information can be passed along to someone who has goals that go beyond the DE.

ProCoach

I agree with all of this.

I also spend a LOT of time with DE students who talk about how their instructors confide in them, at some point during the weekend, "the racing line." Sheesh...

Streak

I've heard it too. In the case above I can see how a student would say "my instructor showed me the racing line in the chute" but that's not quite true. What I'm showing you is where you'll end up when you carry enough speed thru the chute. Same for South Bend. I've seen cars come out of the top S and hug the right side of the track to enter South Bend which is an impossible line if you've come up the Esses like your on fire. So it's not really the "racing" line it's more about the progression of speed and where you'll end up. That make more sense?

sbelles

The racing line is wherever to have to put the car to get through traffic. I've had a couple of students who really didn't have a clue how to compensate if they have to go off the line that they have been taught they have to keep to. For newbies I teach a somewhat safer (later apex) line then I might take but there isn't a whole lot of difference. I also encourage them to go offline once in a while so that they understand how and why they have to change inputs due to different lines.

ExMB

I'm agreeing with docwyte here. A lot of times I instruct I have 2 students and run sessions myself. That doesn't leave a lot of time to download video (if student has it - I don't move my equipment from car to car) and review the session with a student before I have to get to my next student or my session (unlike TX most places don't give instructors free time in this neck of the woods). Having only 1 student may make it possible if its equipment I'm familiar with. If we are going to that extend I believe the student needs to hire someone to get undivided attention which also requires more familiarity with the track you're on in those cases where its not your home track.

$0.02

With your approval I will use those.

David993S

Racing is to DE's as DE's are to Autocrossing.

LuigiVampa

100% agree with this. My goal from the start was to go racing as soon as I was ready and I used DE as my "feeder" as well.

Somehow wanting to go racing is treated like a sin by many DE organizations. CVR was supportive and even gave me instructors who had racing experience to do ride alongs once I was in white and deemed "ready".

DE at lower run groups teaches you car control. Later it teaches you advanced techniques like heel toe, etc. At the top of the food chain there is advanced passing and you learn how to drive in close proximity to other cars. You also learn who you can trust and who you can't trust. All of these things are useful once you go racing.

It is a shame that it doesn't happen but I think racing should be discussed among the higher run group levels.

JP66

That's easy

This is a forum on the internet where people come to learn, and also to be entertained. That may not be how all folks see it, but it's how I see it. I ask questions and make comments that are actually on my mind, and some folks may not like that or like what I have to say and thats ok. Nobody is making anyone read my comments or respond, but based on all the discussion that comes up I'd say it's a safe bet that the topics I am bringing up are of interest to many, and certainly I appreciate the flood of learning I get every time I read a new online discussion.

Very often I do have regrets in how I post things because it is clear that the intent I had did not come across right. This thread is another perfect example.

I mentioned I was faster than my instructor not trying to say I'm great because I am the first person that will tell you I am still a rank beginner and have tons to learn in simple basics. It was the only data point I had to show that this club was slower than other clubs with which I had experience, and also to point out that my instructor was a DE coach and not a "racing coach". Previously I had kinda assumed they were one and the same The other clubs I have driven with had always assigned coaches for me who were either currently racing or had prior racing experience.


What I think I have learned is to treat DEs as cheap seat/track time and simply enjoy the new friends I make and time I spend on track, but I will not expect that every DE instructor I get is going to be teaching me how to race. In fact now I will expect just the opposite. I expect my DE coach to teach me about car control and show me a safe line at a new track.

TXE36

One of the things I do with my students once they have started to get it and have demonstrated good judgement is when completing passes in short passing zones I have them intentionally stay off line at the next turn entry just to learn how to do it. I like this for two reasons:

• It demonstrates the need to brake more to get the car to around a tighter radius.
• It shows them the challenge of the tighter line so they are more aware if being passed and the car in front of them does this, there is a chance for a spin or mishap.

Being competent in driving off line is a skill that right at home in advanced DE, IMO. It's fun as well and allows for things such as Chin's open passing, where side by side passing in turns can occur.

-Mike