Giving the pass? Why?
 

So I have not raced yet in my life, and I am constantly learning that there is more that I don't know than what I actually know, but I've been watching a ton of PCA race videos, and here is my question:

Why do you slow down to let a faster class pass?

If they are faster then they should have no trouble finding an opportunity to make the pass. Why do slower classes have to "give way" to faster classes? Isn't that the whole point of racing? Pass if you are faster. Why do slower cars need to make it easier?

I don't mean it's ok to block, and obviously if a faster car takes a line inside or outside to initiate a pass then the slower car should respect that line, but do slower classes really need to "slow" to allow the pass?

That just doesn't seem fair.

Remember I'm the newbie, and I'm just trying to learn from the collective wisdom :D

Nobody slows down but you try to find a courteous way to create a passing opportunity for the faster car that allows both of you to maintain momentum. Win-win. Requires watching mirrors, judging closing speeds, and situational awareness.

It's sometimes faster to lift or brake a little early vs going thru a corner side by side
Some corners it's alot easier to loose 3 tenths braking early and tucking in behind so you can still get a a good uncompromised run off the corner

If your not battling anyone and you see 2 higher class cars it's just good manners to let them by and not Interfere.
Same goes for when your the faster car....see they have a battle going try to not get in the middle and ruin someone's race.....

It's not just about being faster......your sharing the track....SHARING.....your fellow drivers will remember more than ya think and I'd rather have more friends vs enemies

^^^^ This

Even when you are racing, there is skill in letting a faster out of class car pass without slowing you and him down.

You never lift if you can help it but you can alter your line to give the faster car a pass where it won't slow you down. If you race the faster car they may force a pass where you have to slow down.

Agree that no one "slows down," but instead recognizes early the ebb and flow of faster and slower cars on track. This allows conscious, constructive decisions to be made IN ADVANCE of when they're needed.

I think the first skill needed is the situational awareness of when, where and how quicker traffic can be accommodated.

Then, decide when that will occur and working with the other driver how that will occur so as not to compromise your OWN progress through corner or corners.

I think you are looking for black and white when only color exists out there! :D Plus, if you do this long enough, there is nothing "fair" about racing! :D Ask Toyota!

There is no "obligation" by ostensibly "slower" classes of racing to "give way" to "faster" classes, only that each case is taken on it's own.

The reason for this is that a) slower class cars can be quicker (and often are) than quicker class cars at given areas on the course, and between tracks, b) drivers progress at different rates of speed throughout the weekend (someone who is slower on Friday may win the race on Sunday), c) it's really down to the motivation, skill and mental mindset of a driver how aggressive/quick/close to the edge they want and can be, from session to session, d) myriads of other reasons, not the least of which new/used tires, whether the car is "working well" or not, etc.

There is MUCH more of an obligation for a single (alternate class) car to not get involved in a pair (or more) of quicker cars locked in a dice coming up to pass (i.e. racing cars that they are not directly and immediately in competition with).

There is much more (hopefully) cooperation between drivers, either willingly or unwillingly, depending on each of their attitudes, than would appear watching a bunch of club racing videos. This is why experience helps, but awareness and common sense are KING!

[/QUOTE]I think the first skill needed is the situational awareness of when, where and how quicker traffic can be accommodated.

Then, decide when that will occur and working with the other driver how that will occur so as not to compromise your OWN progress through corner or corners.[/QUOTE]

^^^What he said.

Too often I hear, "I wasn't sure what cars were around me."

Passing, being passed, and coordinating a pass is like a dance. It takes two to tango.

Exactly, I usually know 2-3 corners in advance when I will be getting passed cause i'll see him way back and if all goes well I can tuck right in on their tail without losing much time at all (if any)..

There are plenty of times where a faster car has not qualified well and my battle is in class. it makes a lot of sense to get him by in the best place possible , if you know you cant beat him or hold him off without blocking or driving narrow. Plus, you can sometimes tuck in after a slow turn on to a fast straight and get on his bumper and get a draft! often times, then he goes to pass your competitor ahead, who isnt so accommodating, and gets his line taken from him....... hes off line, (aka slower) and now you have a chance to pounce.
this is part of racing that allows you to still be ultra competitive, but smart about it.

+1

If you slow to let a faster car through you are giving another car the chance to slip in with the faster car. I have done it and had it done to me!

The faster car is coming through either way. So why not make it so you are not passed in a way that massively interrupts your momentum? Sometimes that means braking a tad earlier or breathing the throttle just a little bit. You might stay wide a little longer. Sometimes it means doing nothing at all. It all depends when and where you are caught.

If you really time it right you can avoid disrupting your momentum and have the passing car slow your competitors at the same time.

2 cars battling will be slower than each one individually. If it is in class, the battle makes sense. Out of class, it doesn't. Let the faster car by, but just because they are in a "faster" class doesn't mean the driver is.

My question to followup on the OP, is it an unwritten rule to let the faster car pass? Is it frowned upon to battle or race a car in a higher class since you are sharing the track and that car is trying to race other cars in its class? Will it earn you a "talking to" from other drivers or the event organizer?

There is really nothing to be gained by trying to prevent a faster car in another class from passing you. Battling the faster car would require you to drive a defensive line. A defensive line is a slower line. All you are doing is slowing both cars down. Does that do you any good? Why would you want to do this? Ego? Selfishness?

Just a complete novice asking a dumb question trying to learn the mindset of these guys I read about everyday!

When racing in multi-class grids, the first goal (beside not wrecking anyone) is to do as well as you can in your class. Racing a faster car in a different class does not help you reach that goal. All it might do is hurt that goal. Another good goal to have when racing in multi-class grids is to not screw up another class's race(s). You might do that trying to race that faster car in another class.

While it looks like racing, it could be a Time Trial or HPDE you were looking at. In those types of events, you technically are not racing against other cars and the polite thing to do is let a faster car pass. In those events, you do lift to let the other car pass.

Yes but races also sometimes break out between different class cars further back in the pack by mutual consent too and occasionally, two different classes vie for the overall win so as Peter said it's not all black and white.

It all changes when you have near equal speed cars. I was talking about clearly faster out of class cars.....

I think this is a good question, having just watched Van's highly entertaining (and not a little frustrating, if you let it get to you) video of his Sprint Race at The Glen. Let me think about this...

Car's class is less important than the speed/pace differential and whether you are messing up a competitive battle with your actions. Even in class, it may be prudent to let a faster car pass you with the least loss of time/momentum (both yours and theirs) if they had been delayed for some reason (off, bad qual, penalty) and are fighting their way to P1. What's the point of "fighting" them if you are 3sec/1min of laptime slower than them? Also, it is often fun to dice it out with cars from a different class if the laptimes are similar and if you're not messing up any in-class battles. Common sense resolves 99% of these cases.

Managing slower/faster traffic is a major component of race-craft, yet often underestimated. Like Gary mentioned, after estimating the speed differential, I oftentimes plan for passes 2-3 turns ahead and adjust my pace to minimize my time loss from the pass, whether I'm the slower or the faster car, regardless.

Thanks in advance! Many times we share our HPDE with racing organizations, so it is interesting to learn more of the background thought. Also it can help to understand some of the thought behind frustration when racers are participating with HPDE run groups to better prepare for what an approaching racer is thinking in the seat behind me.

At an HPDE treat ALL cars that close on you quickly the same way, doesn't matter if the guy is a racer or not.... they are all thinking the same thing, "where is my pass signal".

I knew this was a quick response away. I will disagree from the standpoint that my "momentum car" has straddled MANY a Porsche bumper for laps, and because of the speed differential in the straights, not gotten a point by. Why is it the momentum car drivers seem more "calm" about this process than the hot shoes driving 500hp that have "earned" advanced grouping due to their 4 HPDE's?

When I am having trouble getting a point, I tend to try and be a bit more understanding while it seems some others cant wait to get back to the pits to go fistacuffs because it was their fastest lap ever that was ruined. Why do they stress fun, learning, and camaraderie at drivers meetings when it is apparent that lap times are the most mission critical piece to success?

As I said in the Doc's thread: If we all treat this as a GENTLEMAN's hobby, and take a dose of patience when reacting to a one off situation (not a repeated offense), maybe everyone would have a bit more fun.

If this problem is seemingly a frequent occurrence for you (sensing frustration looming), is there a possibility the issue is on the other side of the finger?

Re-reading this, let me apologize for the rant. Obviously everyone has their own perspective, mine is from doing this a long time with 240 hp....

My race car has 190 HP... no apologies necessary, but in a standard DE if you are being held up for laps the blame falls on you for not coming in and both separating yourself from the buffoon and giving the organizers a report on him. As a racer at a DE I don't get frustrated, I take appropriate action if held up. As a DE Instructor I take exactly the same action and reinforce it in my student.

If it bothered me enough (or was a habitual issue with that particular car/driver), that is assuredly what I would do. If i cant get a point by over a couple corners, I tend to just give him/her some room to work on whatever issues have them mentally tied up and take a cool down for a half a lap. With the HP difference, 1 min of gathering my thoughts buys them a half a lap lead before I start going back at it.

My point is frustration has ZERO place at an HPDE (for safety reasons alone). We are all out there for the same purpose, so give your fellow drivers at least ONE benefit of a doubt before assuming they are horse sh$# behind the wheel and putting yourself in danger by getting flustered. If it happens again, have a discussion with the CDI. At PCA and BMCCA events, the reason I enjoy them so much is for their insistence on having the proper mindset and enjoying more than the just the lap times. People at these events tend to be fellow enthusiasts, and life tends to be much better when you approach them with that mindset.

I'll lift or alter my line to let a guy with higher hp but lower skill by

Ultimately I don't want him messing up my race and if I can strategically decide where to let him by so he doesn't slow me up later (i.e. Let him by before main straight) and cost me more lap time

Pay now or pay later

The racer might be thinking something like:
I'm in zone....she's really talking to me today....everything is just flowing...
Then he see's a slower car from several turns back: Hope he's watching his mirrors.....
From the the exit of the prior turn: Where's the point?, Where's the point?, Come on -- Where's the point?
Carrying good momentum and getting close to the slower lead car: Point, Point, Point, Point NOW @#$%^&!'er.....
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The real question is:
Why is the slower higher class car block in the
turns and powers away on the straight the faster lower class car?

Hah! I ask myself that ALL the time! :(

As I have heard numerous times at driver's meetings, if the guy in the Miata appears in you rear view mirror get out of his way he is faster than you are. Most of the higher hp cars is all about ego unfortunately not about skill. The more expensive the car the larger the ego.

One would think the ego would fare better if it let the miata pass and disappear into the horizon vs being reminded by it in its rear view mirror lap after lap. :)

And that is a conversation I am going to have with a certain driver before the next race!

Why were you dive bombing me lap after lap when you were a LAP DOWN and you F-ed my race?! :banghead:

We need video.. but maybe a new thread for it

Seriously, if I don't like his answer when I plan on speaking to him before the Monticello race than the video is going to the scrutes. If I told you his number and class I am pretty confident you would agree with me because he has a habit of doing this and screwed several people at the recent PCA LRP race.

That being said, I always try to give a person a chance to discuss something. The problem is another person who drives in GTB1 had a conversation with him after the LRP race and the guys response was "I am racing".

When you are a lap down in a sprint race at LRP you aren't racing anymore.