TXE36

Apparently it is also a good way to learn overtaking as opposed to merely passing.

-Mike

golfnutintib

#51 "You can't drive 10/10 with street tires in a stock car."

Maybe I am taking his comment out of context... no intention to pick a fight here... but my reply to that, just like Mike's is. 'well of course you can...the limits are just lower... better yet, drive a heavy front engine rear drive street car with mediocre, all season tires (hahaha)... in doing so, the novice driver will learn car control, weight transfer, gentle throttle, and managing traction at LOWER speeds, and in the process, maybe spare himself some financial or bodily damage compared to the guy who goes out there and tests traction limits in a rented Mustang race car on slicks..."

aalencar

Thanks again for all the great input. Trust me, I have asked myself more than once if I WAS THE PROBLEM! I truly believe that was not the case. I was far from thinking I was born with the gift of driving when I went for my first DE. I raced go-karts for quite a long time when I was a kid, but it has been years and all it did was feed my passion for cars. I had my head down, ready to be passed by VW beetles and still have fun. The first instructor was great and things were moving well. I don't think the second instructor was all that bad, I acknowledge I did learn a lot about late braking with him, but the dramatic difference with the way he approached braking and the way instructors 1 and 3 did was what made me wonder about PCA. I understand there will always be variations to how people do the same thing, but I was hoping for some consistency when learning.

#3 was just a jerk and that's life. I obviously did accept that he drive my car as I was truly willing to learn whatever he wanted to teach me. But I never expected him to do it during my session and for the entire 25 minutes. No I was never worried about the high revs. My point is that he was using MY car and was not even familiar with it! To his defense he had a cup car with one seat. But still, it was just a bad experience that now is part of the past.

In the end the inconsistency between the instructors was my problem, I just felt that PCA would always be that bag of surprises and I would risk getting all excited for another weekend and see that fade away with a bad instructor. Even worse, I would get different opinions and build a weak base of knowledge. But you guys convinced me otherwise.

My plan was to get some professional teaching from PSDS or Skip Barber with hopes to become solo then go back to PCA and try to learn from seat time and other people. I don't love the folks in this PCA but their events are well organized and surprisingly not overcrowded. So I thought I would be ok just doing my own stuff as solo. But from what I see, the majority believes I would benefit more from professional school later on. I will certainly try other areas PCAs, but will give my area one more chance. I will also try Chin and I am curious about Performance Driving group. So my summer will be between Sebring and Homestead and these 3 groups! Then by the end of the year I will probably give Porsche Driving School a chance. How does that sound?

TXE36

Consistency in the instructor corps is difficult to achieve. Everybody drives different and while the newbie classroom may only present one line, in fact, there are many ways to pedal around a racetrack. Expect some variation in instructors. In the end, the variation actually benefits you because, over time, you will develop your own way of driving. I know my way of driving has several contributors. Take the stuff you like and use, and chalk up the others to a learning experience.

My advice is to listen to the instructor in the car with you and save any "my other instructor said this" commentary for the debrief. Don't do anything you are uncomfortable with - just come out and say it if the instructor asks you something you don't want to do. I've had a couple of poor instructors over the years, but if I'm honest, I learned something from all of them. From the better instructors, I learned a lot.

As for the Skippy school, I had a newbie student last weekend who attended one and did very well. The only thing he had to work on was flags, as he didn't do that at Skippy. He was driving a newer BMW and I thought he had a DCT. I was shocked when I finally looked down that it was a bog-standard six speed (the R3 HNR makes it difficult to look down). The guy was that smooth.

Variety is the spice of life, and you should sample the organizations around you and attend the events you like the most. IMO, PCA is a very good organization, but they aren't the only game in town. However, IMO, you should give PCA at least one more shot.

-Mike

MarcD147

An instructor driving your car should be specifically driving to demonstrate certain aspects and typically they should drive way down from their skill ( speed/laptime) and just at the level above your skill

If they go faster than that the skill gap will be so big that the student won't understand what is happening besides a feeling of cool/scaredness.

You don't teach students in math who are doing multiplications tables level math on how to do fourier analys as way to make them better at math.

ExMB

Just because you go somewhere else doesn't necessarily imply that you will be accepted as a solo driver in your region. Without the correct and known references you may still be put into a check ride situation which you may or may not pass. I say this based on your repeated comment to attend some school and get "solo" certification. IMHO you are trying to rush things instead of letting things develop.

Olemiss540

My bad, carry on!

aalencar

Thanks for pointing it out. I recognize I am rushing and I don't really like it. I believe in solid foundations for anything that is complex to be done well. I don't believe 3 days of racing classes at Skip Barber will turn me into Ayrton Senna. But I just had the idea it would be a more structured learning environment that would be a better place to start and build upon. And if this allowed me to be less exposed to the chance of meeting a bad instructor, even better. But again, you have convinced me otherwise. I will make use of the instruction from PCA and Chin and polish it up with professional schools later on.

alexaqui

Someone at their very first event at WGI last weekend was running R888s!!!

It was also shocking to see the degree of prepped cars in Green and Yellow!!

As for instruction, someone I knew in Green was complaining that his instructor was holding him back. I suggested that he ask his instructor where the areas of improvement are; clearly the instructor saw some things he did not like, despite the fact the driver was passing everyone. Speed != upgrade!

LuigiVampa

I disagree. While a basic rule of driving on the track is to "drive the grip" there comes a point where you cannot learn anything further, and in fact, a driver may pick up some bad habits, if you try to drive 10/10 on street tires.

Perhaps it is only my opinion, and others may disagree, but I believe street tires are fine for lower run groups only. If you want to work on race craft you need race tires. If you want to explore the true potential of your car you need race tires.

Also, I am not necessarily talking about racing slicks per se, but tires similar to a good set of DOT legal Hoosier R7s.

Lastly, you did a Katie Couric edit and made my quote seem out of context. My full quote was as follows:

You can't drive 10/10 with street tires in a stock car. You can, however, learn the basics which will allow you to move up to a track prepared car when you are ready.

So instead of disagreeing with me you are kind of repeating what I was saying. I am advocating better tires as someone progresses.

NYC993

This should be a learning experience in itself. The best thing to do is learn to learn yourself. Pick a few books (i.e. Speed Secrets), listen to what your instructors has to say but you don't have to follow it 100%. It's your car and you should feel what feels good and what doesn't, it's not rocket science and we are not trying to be pro-drivers fighting for last .01 of sec.

I had instructors who told me to be smoother on the brakes and the ones who said to hit brakes harder/quicker. It seemed controversial but they were both right in their own way.

Also, just because you clicked with an instructor, doesn't necessarily mean he was good instructor. Many instructors just want you to go around safe without pushing too hard. And if you want to start pushing harder, you'll have to learn to do it without instructor in your car. Just take your time and you'll be there.\

EDIT: and yea no need for instructor to drive your car for session and you can always ask for a different instructors. Several of my friends have done that. It just happens, it's not personal.

TXE36

I have a hard time fathoming someone competently driving street tires at 10/10ths actually developing any bad habits assuming they are keeping it under control, on the track, and are not relying on driver aids.

We will have to agree to disagree. You can drive street tires at 10/10ths. The second bolded sentence doesn't change this.

As far as Katie is concerned, haven't you heard? Her new thing is to add silence after her question in post edit by using b-roll footage to make it seem like she stumped her interviewee. Cutting stuff out of footage is so 2012. BTW, anybody can click the arrow thingy in the quote to see the whole thing.

-Mike

ML///

Dear OP, I think you should slow down a bit and think about what is happening. Keep in mind that lots of the advice on the forums is coming from people who have been doing this for a long time and sometimes forget what its like to be new at something. Some have instructed and some haven't.

For context, I run with many clubs here in the NE and have been with just about every type of instructor - the overtalkers, the blinding waving hand-signaler, to the ones that just sit back and say nothing. Each one helped me figure something out how I can improve my DE experience, whether directly or indirectly. That said, you have to remember the fundamental rule around the the entire purpose of the DE - have fun learning. Your instructor usually doesn't know much about you, your car and your DE history. Therefore they are going blind into a situation and trying to come up with plan based on whatever they pickup. Sure the instructor may be able to pickout what the he thinks you need help with; however, what he thinks vs what you think could be on two different levels.

That's why before you go to your DE you should come up with a list of 5 to 10 things you would like to work on or achieve during your DE (setting goals). This can be proper track braking, focusing on a specific corner, carrying speed at the exit or driving the "school" line as good as possible. When you have a brief moment to meet your instructor discuss what you're looking to accomplish. YOU drive the objectives based on what you put together. Most instructors will be completely receptive to this approach as they can provide quality input based on your objectives (plus they can often point out areas where you're trying things wrong).

DEs are overwhelming and there's a lot going on. To ease the transition its better for you to have a focus on what you're there to do. Professional coaching is the same thing but at a much higher price. It makes more sense to test a few ideas and discover your pain-points and then, if funds are no option, hire a pro coach. Now with all that said make sure to have loads of fun. When you are learning and having fun you'll start showing up to more DEs than you thought you would do in year. I certainly hope this helps you have a different approach to DEs and it gets you back into the driver seat on track.

NYC993

I agree that "learn on street tires" is overused. Street tires used to scare me a bit. This is first season on NT01s and they are great. They provide much better feel and give a lot more confidence. Having said that, if your street tires are not squealing (or rather singing) in almost every corner, no point getting better tires. Also with higher g's you need seats and harnesses to keep you in place, otherwise it's hard to get consistent driving when you have to brace yourself.

linzman

Have to agree with Mike on this one. Any car can be driven at 10/10ths of the limit as it is equipped. Tires have nothing to do with the percent of the limit you drive at, they just move the limit up a notch, as does a well adjusted suspension, useful aero, etc.