Newbie unhappy with PCA DEs
05-27-2016, 05:08 PM
#46
I have found in my 17 years of instructing with PCA and other clubs that every student is different and I have to adjust my methods of instruction in order to get them moving in the right direction. For example, some students want a lot of verbal input over the course of the session. Others want less.
I learned fairly quickly when instructing that sometimes it is better to shut up. I had a few students who's performance shot up considerably when I stopped yacking in their ear and I now will proactively ask how much verbal instruction they want. I also emphasize, there is no wrong answer.
Instructing is a great way to learn about people and how to communicate effectively in a high stress, highly distracting environment.
-Mike
05-27-2016, 05:54 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Cumon now..... Private coaching and solo driving?
I have ran in instructed sessions for the last 5 years, only recently (2 years ago) moving to a non-instructed run group.
This is a hobby that needs to be developed (car control) over TIME and over SESSIONS. Granted, we all have those crappy events due to poor instruction, but in hindsight, I could have prevented it had I opened my mouth and spoken to an event organizer instead of complained my way through it.
Paying for private coaching after 4 events (give or take) so you don't have to worry about a bad session or two finding a compatible coach? It's not like he is driving a Spec Boxter at 9/10's, he is driving a 2012 C4S at (probably) 6/10th. He needs seat time more than anything else....
To the OP,
Go to different events, run with different organizers, and experience the thrill these different groups have to offer. No need for Skip Barber's racing school until you are running in Advanced Sessions, with a TRACK PREPARED car and want to take the next step. Until you have a proper hammer, and data acquisition to know right from wrong, it would be a waste of money compared to 400 dollar track weekends.
I have ran in instructed sessions for the last 5 years, only recently (2 years ago) moving to a non-instructed run group.
This is a hobby that needs to be developed (car control) over TIME and over SESSIONS. Granted, we all have those crappy events due to poor instruction, but in hindsight, I could have prevented it had I opened my mouth and spoken to an event organizer instead of complained my way through it.
Paying for private coaching after 4 events (give or take) so you don't have to worry about a bad session or two finding a compatible coach? It's not like he is driving a Spec Boxter at 9/10's, he is driving a 2012 C4S at (probably) 6/10th. He needs seat time more than anything else....
To the OP,
Go to different events, run with different organizers, and experience the thrill these different groups have to offer. No need for Skip Barber's racing school until you are running in Advanced Sessions, with a TRACK PREPARED car and want to take the next step. Until you have a proper hammer, and data acquisition to know right from wrong, it would be a waste of money compared to 400 dollar track weekends.
05-27-2016, 05:55 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Do not let an instructor "decide to drive your car" as they really should not ask. It is your car and you are by no means obligated to allow an instructor to drive it. If you allow an instructor to drive it, the expectation is reduced pace because it is not their car. They should also treat it like they are a guest and if you want the session to end - the session ends. If they want to demonstrate something at speed, then they can use their car. Also, using your session to do it is completely unacceptable. This is particularly galling, as the instructor can drive in any session he wants.
You are the customer, do not be intimidated to complain to the organization if you are not satisfied. Most of the time it is just a personality issue between student and instructor and all that is needed to resolve is to swap some partners around. I consider the instructor drive you described pretty egregious - deserving of a complaint and an instructor *** chewing.
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors. I would encourage you to give it another shot. Fortunately, your experience is atypical, so the likelihood of a repeat is small and you have learned enough to deal with it if you get unlucky again.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
IIRC, Chin specifically disallows instructors from driving student's cars.
-Mike
You are the customer, do not be intimidated to complain to the organization if you are not satisfied. Most of the time it is just a personality issue between student and instructor and all that is needed to resolve is to swap some partners around. I consider the instructor drive you described pretty egregious - deserving of a complaint and an instructor *** chewing.
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors. I would encourage you to give it another shot. Fortunately, your experience is atypical, so the likelihood of a repeat is small and you have learned enough to deal with it if you get unlucky again.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
IIRC, Chin specifically disallows instructors from driving student's cars.
-Mike
05-27-2016, 06:10 PM
#50
I think you should give your local PCA region another shot, or register for a Chin event when they have one in your area.
A good instructor will not take it personally if a student expresses concern that he/she isn't clicking with their instructor. Also, since people all learn in different ways, if an instructor isn't teaching in a way that is working for you then bring it up with them. We are not going to be offended. I've always been proactive and ask my student how they want me to teach. I have found in my 17 years of instructing with PCA and other clubs that every student is different and I have to adjust my methods of instruction in order to get them moving in the right direction. For example, some students want a lot of verbal input over the course of the session. Others want less. Some like me to use hand signals along with verbal communication. Other don't. I make it very clear to the student that it's their car and they are there to learn something. If they want to drive at a reduced pace, then we go at a reduced pace until they get comfortable.
Some students ask me to drive their car to show them what I talking about. I will do it, but I make it clear that it's not going to be a thrill ride and purely for me to demonstrate what I am looking for. I've never felt the need to risk a students car and my wallet to show off since it's completely unnecessary. We are the staff, you are the customer, and we want you to have a good experience and come back.
Kind regards,
A good instructor will not take it personally if a student expresses concern that he/she isn't clicking with their instructor. Also, since people all learn in different ways, if an instructor isn't teaching in a way that is working for you then bring it up with them. We are not going to be offended. I've always been proactive and ask my student how they want me to teach. I have found in my 17 years of instructing with PCA and other clubs that every student is different and I have to adjust my methods of instruction in order to get them moving in the right direction. For example, some students want a lot of verbal input over the course of the session. Others want less. Some like me to use hand signals along with verbal communication. Other don't. I make it very clear to the student that it's their car and they are there to learn something. If they want to drive at a reduced pace, then we go at a reduced pace until they get comfortable.
Some students ask me to drive their car to show them what I talking about. I will do it, but I make it clear that it's not going to be a thrill ride and purely for me to demonstrate what I am looking for. I've never felt the need to risk a students car and my wallet to show off since it's completely unnecessary. We are the staff, you are the customer, and we want you to have a good experience and come back.
Kind regards,
I don't think we fundamentally disagree. I've had instructors with single seat cars, and when I've wanted rides they have arrange for another instructor with two seats to do it. Same argument goes if an instructor doesn't want to use up a set of tires.
The OP gave the impression that the instructor required him to allow him to drive his car - that is my big issue. I also don't think it is a good idea for an instructor to consume an entire session doing a demo. If there are no other sessions to run in, then the demo can be done in 2-3 laps pull into hot pits and swap. This is even more important at an expensive and crowded event. We are encouraged in TX to only take students out one run group higher.
I don't really have a problem with an instructor demonstrating the capability of a student's car provided it is the student who asked.
-Mike
The OP gave the impression that the instructor required him to allow him to drive his car - that is my big issue. I also don't think it is a good idea for an instructor to consume an entire session doing a demo. If there are no other sessions to run in, then the demo can be done in 2-3 laps pull into hot pits and swap. This is even more important at an expensive and crowded event. We are encouraged in TX to only take students out one run group higher.
I don't really have a problem with an instructor demonstrating the capability of a student's car provided it is the student who asked.
-Mike
Afterall we are providing a service to a customer, derive some benefit whatever it may be whereever.
I also agree with your introductory ride around the track being limited. At my last event those were the rules. When we came into the pits to switch, last place, and then started back up the gridmaster pointed us into the pits instead of back onto the track. Luckily my student wasn't upset and we spent the remaining time to discuss what he saw, what he remembered, and what he wanted to do from here on out. In hindsight that extra time actually turned out beneficial for both him and me.
05-27-2016, 06:21 PM
#51
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Cumon now..... Private coaching and solo driving?
I have ran in instructed sessions for the last 5 years, only recently (2 years ago) moving to a non-instructed run group.
This is a hobby that needs to be developed (car control) over TIME and over SESSIONS. Granted, we all have those crappy events due to poor instruction, but in hindsight, I could have prevented it had I opened my mouth and spoken to an event organizer instead of complained my way through it.
Paying for private coaching after 4 events (give or take) so you don't have to worry about a bad session or two finding a compatible coach? It's not like he is driving a Spec Boxter at 9/10's, he is driving a 2012 C4S at (probably) 6/10th. He needs seat time more than anything else....
To the OP,
Go to different events, run with different organizers, and experience the thrill these different groups have to offer. No need for Skip Barber's racing school until you are running in Advanced Sessions, with a TRACK PREPARED car and want to take the next step. Until you have a proper hammer, and data acquisition to know right from wrong, it would be a waste of money compared to 400 dollar track weekends.
I have ran in instructed sessions for the last 5 years, only recently (2 years ago) moving to a non-instructed run group.
This is a hobby that needs to be developed (car control) over TIME and over SESSIONS. Granted, we all have those crappy events due to poor instruction, but in hindsight, I could have prevented it had I opened my mouth and spoken to an event organizer instead of complained my way through it.
Paying for private coaching after 4 events (give or take) so you don't have to worry about a bad session or two finding a compatible coach? It's not like he is driving a Spec Boxter at 9/10's, he is driving a 2012 C4S at (probably) 6/10th. He needs seat time more than anything else....
To the OP,
Go to different events, run with different organizers, and experience the thrill these different groups have to offer. No need for Skip Barber's racing school until you are running in Advanced Sessions, with a TRACK PREPARED car and want to take the next step. Until you have a proper hammer, and data acquisition to know right from wrong, it would be a waste of money compared to 400 dollar track weekends.
You can't drive 10/10 with street tires in a stock car. You can, however, learn the basics which will allow you to move up to a track prepared car when you are ready.
05-27-2016, 06:36 PM
#52
Sure you can. It will just be 10/10 for that car with street tires. There are those that will argue that one shouldn't move on to track tires until they can drive streets at 10/10ths.
Track tires raise the capability of the car, not the driver.
-Mike
Track tires raise the capability of the car, not the driver.
-Mike
05-27-2016, 06:54 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
Find quality driver/instructor (both need to be quality). Pay them to teach you.
How to find quality? Ask around. Racers, shops, etc. you'll find pattern. Quality instructor #1 may or may not jive with you/your learning style. No prob. Try next. Find someone u like. Keep paying them.
How to find quality? Ask around. Racers, shops, etc. you'll find pattern. Quality instructor #1 may or may not jive with you/your learning style. No prob. Try next. Find someone u like. Keep paying them.
05-27-2016, 07:10 PM
#54
Race Car
Just done my 1st DE as an instructor early this week. I also jumped in about 6 other cars to teach all group levels as they wanted me to be a mentor.
I never thought about asking the drivers how they like to be teach. Good point luigi.
I realized that i speak a lot during a session and even during the warm up lap, i wanted to wait but just couldnt as my drivers were making mistakes already hehe.
I received some great comments and a lot of thanks and that made my day.
Find someone that clicks with you, speak with different instructors before sessions.
Im passionnate about porsche, racing, instructing. Find a guy like that and you will enjoy.
I never thought about asking the drivers how they like to be teach. Good point luigi.
I realized that i speak a lot during a session and even during the warm up lap, i wanted to wait but just couldnt as my drivers were making mistakes already hehe.
I received some great comments and a lot of thanks and that made my day.
Find someone that clicks with you, speak with different instructors before sessions.
Im passionnate about porsche, racing, instructing. Find a guy like that and you will enjoy.
05-27-2016, 07:21 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Agreed with you Mike, but hopefully one is not stupid enough to try until you have the safety equipment and seat time to be properly equipped to do so....
05-27-2016, 07:26 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
+1. modern street tires have a shocking level of grip. It is such a disservice to driver development for students and intermediate level drivers to up tire compounds so quickly. Every time I see an intermediate driver on Hoosiers I want to wring their neck.
05-27-2016, 07:40 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
05-27-2016, 07:45 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
You can't drive 10/10 with street tires in a stock car.
Sure you can. It will just be 10/10 for that car with street tires. There are those that will argue that one shouldn't move on to track tires until they can drive streets at 10/10ths.
Track tires raise the capability of the car, not the driver.
-Mike
best for novices/learners to learn with a car with LOWER limits, not higher ones... then the need for car control can be felt at saner speeds
every time i have been to sonoma this year there has been a beginner or intermediate driver who has rented a race car with slicks, who then proceeded to slam it into a wall... usually at t6... (not that i was in any way personally involved with these... but just sayin'...sheesh)...
05-27-2016, 08:27 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
right on again mike...the prior post is just goofy and shows real lack of understanding best for novices/learners to learn with a car with LOWER limits, not higher ones... then the need for car control can be felt at saner speeds every time i have been to sonoma this year there has been a beginner or intermediate driver who has rented a race car with slicks, who then proceeded to slam it into a wall... usually at t6... (not that i was in any way personally involved with these... but just sayin'...sheesh)...
Go take a go karting class too - awesome way to learn to go zoom zoom
05-27-2016, 08:31 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Are you talking about learning on a car with LOWER limits and referencing the OP'S near new C4S? Have any idea how capable those are? Reaches higher corner entry speeds than many race cars testing at DEs. We are talking about track prepared cars here, not 991 GT3 cup cars. My e36 Track Prepped car will be 2 laps behind after the first 10 min.......
Lack of understanding? Care to reference or quote which post you are referring to? Thanks!
Lack of understanding? Care to reference or quote which post you are referring to? Thanks!
right on again mike...the prior post is just goofy and shows real lack of understanding
best for novices/learners to learn with a car with LOWER limits, not higher ones... then the need for car control can be felt at saner speeds
every time i have been to sonoma this year there has been a beginner or intermediate driver who has rented a race car with slicks, who then proceeded to slam it into a wall... usually at t6... (not that i was in any way personally involved with these... but just sayin'...sheesh)...
best for novices/learners to learn with a car with LOWER limits, not higher ones... then the need for car control can be felt at saner speeds
every time i have been to sonoma this year there has been a beginner or intermediate driver who has rented a race car with slicks, who then proceeded to slam it into a wall... usually at t6... (not that i was in any way personally involved with these... but just sayin'...sheesh)...