Classing the 928 in POC - helping them "fix" their rules (HP vs torque discussion)
03-31-2016, 07:56 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Classing the 928 in POC - helping them "fix" their rules (HP vs torque discussion)
You guys want to know why im so passionate about getting the word out there? its for the guys like Glen that think that everyone should just "know this".
well, i have news for you ... another blatant example of the miss use of torque and HP for classing race cars. of couse, as luck would have it, it doesnt matter for most porsches, as their torque value never exceeds their HP. (assuming HP vs torque in ft-lbs). BUT, toss a stroker into the mix or a '79 porsche, where peak power can be 25% less than peak torque and you have a platform to have some REAL unfair classing of the 928 . thats where i come in.
you see, without getting back into the hours and hours of discussion. its simple. torque has NOTHING to do with power, or acceleration potential unless you know a lot more (such as engine RPM, gear ratios, wheel size, etc) taking engine HP and making a ratio with car weight is a great way to classify race cars for parity. BUT , some think that a higher numerical PEAK torque is somehow an advantage, so they use it to actually raise the HP valuation of the car with a higher numerical torque value (in ft-lbs) vs HP. this is Crazy unfair and really shows the lack of knowledge of most racers that run these clubs.
for example..... .that porsche 928 with 240rwt and 200rwhp... sorry pal, his power rating is now 240 vs his weight. he just got a 40hp re-asseseement!!!! NOT GOOD!!
now, what is the reality here? i know what they are doing. they are thinking higher than HP value torque, means the HP is more flat. (this can be true) but not always, and mostly never.
porsche 928 "high torque value" at 375rwhp,
vs
cayman "low torque values" but 350rwhp
just compare a porsche 928 with 410rwt and 375rwHP and look at the average HP over the operational range, and things might surprise you.
remember, we use the car at max HP, max redline and then post redline. if you use those three points, you get a pretty decent measure of average HP.
so what is the average HP for a car like mine, that has much more torque than HP based on a prettty low engine Redline?
lets compare it to a hot , larger motor cayman porsche with 350rwhp. keep in mind, if we are going to be fair here, we need to look at the big picture too..... gear box spacing is a key element too. 928 has 71% of the RPM left after a redline shift.... the cayman? 80%. using 3rd to 4th gear change for both. ( the cayman has close ratio gears... and ever close in the next gear change, 4-5th, at near 85%)
Here is a smarter approach to the question and answers:
Here is a dyno from some random cayman off the web, but it has a 350rwhp peak. The Class GT3 champion has more like this power as well. (hp to weight ratio needs to be 8.5:1 for this class so he needs to weigh 3020lbs)
If you look at the curve, its VERY simple to prove my point that the torque is a NON factor for limting or regulating the class .
Not only that, you see that the cars are evened out via HP /weight ratio rules alone, and NOT by doing anything else. they have the same average HP relative to their weight , as they do PEAK, relative to their weight.
The Cayman 354HP/ 275ft-lbs
Redine 320
Peak 354
Post shift HP 310 (using 3rd to 4th gear) 80% of RPM level after post redline shift
AVERAGE HP over the entire operational range: 328HP. This is 92% of its peak HP.
The 928 with bigger than usual HP and much higher torque than HP. 375/ 410ft-lbs
Redline 320HP
Peak HP 375
Post shift HP 345 (using 3rd-4th gear) (71% of RPM level, post redline shift)
Average HP for the entire operational range is 345HP This ALSO is 92% of its PEAK HP!!!!!!!
We end up otaling up area under the HP curve, (via using averages) and that’s the main issue here and shows really, equality if you keep the HP /weight ratios the same. MOST folks will not understand, but if you present in the way ive shown above, it should make perfect sense.
MOVING UP the HP for the 928 to its MAX torque value is UNFAIR, by exactly what the increase is!!! The HP to weight is the same for the average HP as it is for the post shift HP value. Using a higher number is a blatant miss use of science and math and this should be obvious.
I hope this helps you understand, WHY i get so deep in these HP /torque discussions. there still is SO much misunderstanding and misapplications of the phyiscs to control parity in racing!
well, i have news for you ... another blatant example of the miss use of torque and HP for classing race cars. of couse, as luck would have it, it doesnt matter for most porsches, as their torque value never exceeds their HP. (assuming HP vs torque in ft-lbs). BUT, toss a stroker into the mix or a '79 porsche, where peak power can be 25% less than peak torque and you have a platform to have some REAL unfair classing of the 928 . thats where i come in.
you see, without getting back into the hours and hours of discussion. its simple. torque has NOTHING to do with power, or acceleration potential unless you know a lot more (such as engine RPM, gear ratios, wheel size, etc) taking engine HP and making a ratio with car weight is a great way to classify race cars for parity. BUT , some think that a higher numerical PEAK torque is somehow an advantage, so they use it to actually raise the HP valuation of the car with a higher numerical torque value (in ft-lbs) vs HP. this is Crazy unfair and really shows the lack of knowledge of most racers that run these clubs.
for example..... .that porsche 928 with 240rwt and 200rwhp... sorry pal, his power rating is now 240 vs his weight. he just got a 40hp re-asseseement!!!! NOT GOOD!!
now, what is the reality here? i know what they are doing. they are thinking higher than HP value torque, means the HP is more flat. (this can be true) but not always, and mostly never.
porsche 928 "high torque value" at 375rwhp,
vs
cayman "low torque values" but 350rwhp
just compare a porsche 928 with 410rwt and 375rwHP and look at the average HP over the operational range, and things might surprise you.
remember, we use the car at max HP, max redline and then post redline. if you use those three points, you get a pretty decent measure of average HP.
so what is the average HP for a car like mine, that has much more torque than HP based on a prettty low engine Redline?
lets compare it to a hot , larger motor cayman porsche with 350rwhp. keep in mind, if we are going to be fair here, we need to look at the big picture too..... gear box spacing is a key element too. 928 has 71% of the RPM left after a redline shift.... the cayman? 80%. using 3rd to 4th gear change for both. ( the cayman has close ratio gears... and ever close in the next gear change, 4-5th, at near 85%)
Here is a smarter approach to the question and answers:
Here is a dyno from some random cayman off the web, but it has a 350rwhp peak. The Class GT3 champion has more like this power as well. (hp to weight ratio needs to be 8.5:1 for this class so he needs to weigh 3020lbs)
If you look at the curve, its VERY simple to prove my point that the torque is a NON factor for limting or regulating the class .
Not only that, you see that the cars are evened out via HP /weight ratio rules alone, and NOT by doing anything else. they have the same average HP relative to their weight , as they do PEAK, relative to their weight.
The Cayman 354HP/ 275ft-lbs
Redine 320
Peak 354
Post shift HP 310 (using 3rd to 4th gear) 80% of RPM level after post redline shift
AVERAGE HP over the entire operational range: 328HP. This is 92% of its peak HP.
The 928 with bigger than usual HP and much higher torque than HP. 375/ 410ft-lbs
Redline 320HP
Peak HP 375
Post shift HP 345 (using 3rd-4th gear) (71% of RPM level, post redline shift)
Average HP for the entire operational range is 345HP This ALSO is 92% of its PEAK HP!!!!!!!
We end up otaling up area under the HP curve, (via using averages) and that’s the main issue here and shows really, equality if you keep the HP /weight ratios the same. MOST folks will not understand, but if you present in the way ive shown above, it should make perfect sense.
MOVING UP the HP for the 928 to its MAX torque value is UNFAIR, by exactly what the increase is!!! The HP to weight is the same for the average HP as it is for the post shift HP value. Using a higher number is a blatant miss use of science and math and this should be obvious.
I hope this helps you understand, WHY i get so deep in these HP /torque discussions. there still is SO much misunderstanding and misapplications of the phyiscs to control parity in racing!
Last edited by mark kibort; 04-01-2016 at 02:43 PM.
04-01-2016, 08:35 AM
#2
You guys want to know why im so passionate about getting the word out there? its for the guys like Glen that think that everyone should just "know this".
well, i have news for you ... another blatant example of the miss use of torque and HP for classing race cars. of couse, as luck would have it, it doesnt matter for most porsches, as their torque value never exceeds their HP. (assuming HP vs torque in ft-lbs). BUT, toss a stroker into the mix or a '79 porsche, where peak power can be 25% less than peak torque and you have a platform to have some REAL unfair classing of the 928 . thats where i come in.
you see, without getting back into the hours and hours of discussion. its simple. torque has NOTHING to do with power, or acceleration potential unless you know a lot more (such as engine RPM, gear ratios, wheel size, etc) taking engine HP and making a ratio with car weight is a great way to classify race cars for parity. BUT , some think that a higher numerical PEAK torque is somehow an advantage, so they use it to actually raise the HP valuation of the car with a higher numerical torque value (in ft-lbs) vs HP. this is Crazy unfair and really shows the lack of knowledge of most racers that run these clubs.
for example..... .that porsche 928 with 240rwt and 200rwhp... sorry pal, his power rating is now 240 vs his weight. he just got a 40hp re-asseseement!!!! NOT GOOD!!
now, what is the reality here? i know what they are doing. they are thinking higher than HP value torque, means the HP is more flat. (this can be true) but not always, and mostly never.
porsche 928 "high torque value" at 375rwhp,
vs
cayman "low torque values" but 350rwhp
just compare a porsche 928 with 410rwt and 375rwHP and look at the average HP over the operational range, and things might surprise you.
remember, we use the car at max HP, max redline and then post redline. if you use those three points, you get a pretty decent measure of average HP.
so what is the average HP for a car like mine, that has much more torque than HP based on a prettty low engine Redline?
lets compare it to a hot , larger motor cayman porsche with 350rwhp. keep in mind, if we are going to be fair here, we need to look at the big picture too..... gear box spacing is a key element too. 928 has 71% of the RPM left after a redline shift.... the cayman? 80%. using 3rd to 4th gear change for both. ( the cayman has close ratio gears... and ever close in the next gear change, 4-5th, at near 85%)
Here is a smarter approach to the question and answers:
Here is a dyno from some random cayman off the web, but it has a 350rwhp peak. The Class GT3 champion has more like this power as well. (hp to weight ratio needs to be 8.5:1 for this class so he needs to weigh 3020lbs)
If you look at the curve, its VERY simple to prove my point that the torque is a NON factor for limting or regulating the class .
Not only that, you see that the cars are evened out via HP /weight ratio rules alone, and NOT by doing anything else. they have the same average HP relative to their weight , as they do PEAK, relative to their weight.
The Cayman 354HP/ 275ft-lbs
Redine 320
Peak 354
Post shift HP 310 (using 3rd to 4th gear) 80% of RPM level after post redline shift
AVERAGE HP over the entire operational range: 328HP. This is 92% of its peak HP.
The 928 with bigger than usual HP and much higher torque than HP. 375/ 410ft-lbs
Redline 320HP
Peak HP 375
Post shift HP 345 (using 3rd-4th gear) (71% of RPM level, post redline shift)
Average HP for the entire operational range is 345HP This ALSO is 92% of its PEAK HP!!!!!!!
We end up otaling up area under the HP curve, (via using averages) and that’s the main issue here and shows really, equality if you keep the HP /weight ratios the same. MOST folks will not understand, but if you present in the way ive shown above, it should make perfect sense.
MOVING UP the HP for the 928 to its MAX torque value is UNFAIR, by exactly what the increase is!!! The HP to weight is the same for the average HP as it is for the peak HP value. Using a higher number is a blatant miss use of science and math and this should be obvious.
I hope this helps you understand, WHY i get so deep in these HP /torque discussions. there still is SO much misunderstanding and misapplications of the phyiscs to control parity in racing!
well, i have news for you ... another blatant example of the miss use of torque and HP for classing race cars. of couse, as luck would have it, it doesnt matter for most porsches, as their torque value never exceeds their HP. (assuming HP vs torque in ft-lbs). BUT, toss a stroker into the mix or a '79 porsche, where peak power can be 25% less than peak torque and you have a platform to have some REAL unfair classing of the 928 . thats where i come in.
you see, without getting back into the hours and hours of discussion. its simple. torque has NOTHING to do with power, or acceleration potential unless you know a lot more (such as engine RPM, gear ratios, wheel size, etc) taking engine HP and making a ratio with car weight is a great way to classify race cars for parity. BUT , some think that a higher numerical PEAK torque is somehow an advantage, so they use it to actually raise the HP valuation of the car with a higher numerical torque value (in ft-lbs) vs HP. this is Crazy unfair and really shows the lack of knowledge of most racers that run these clubs.
for example..... .that porsche 928 with 240rwt and 200rwhp... sorry pal, his power rating is now 240 vs his weight. he just got a 40hp re-asseseement!!!! NOT GOOD!!
now, what is the reality here? i know what they are doing. they are thinking higher than HP value torque, means the HP is more flat. (this can be true) but not always, and mostly never.
porsche 928 "high torque value" at 375rwhp,
vs
cayman "low torque values" but 350rwhp
just compare a porsche 928 with 410rwt and 375rwHP and look at the average HP over the operational range, and things might surprise you.
remember, we use the car at max HP, max redline and then post redline. if you use those three points, you get a pretty decent measure of average HP.
so what is the average HP for a car like mine, that has much more torque than HP based on a prettty low engine Redline?
lets compare it to a hot , larger motor cayman porsche with 350rwhp. keep in mind, if we are going to be fair here, we need to look at the big picture too..... gear box spacing is a key element too. 928 has 71% of the RPM left after a redline shift.... the cayman? 80%. using 3rd to 4th gear change for both. ( the cayman has close ratio gears... and ever close in the next gear change, 4-5th, at near 85%)
Here is a smarter approach to the question and answers:
Here is a dyno from some random cayman off the web, but it has a 350rwhp peak. The Class GT3 champion has more like this power as well. (hp to weight ratio needs to be 8.5:1 for this class so he needs to weigh 3020lbs)
If you look at the curve, its VERY simple to prove my point that the torque is a NON factor for limting or regulating the class .
Not only that, you see that the cars are evened out via HP /weight ratio rules alone, and NOT by doing anything else. they have the same average HP relative to their weight , as they do PEAK, relative to their weight.
The Cayman 354HP/ 275ft-lbs
Redine 320
Peak 354
Post shift HP 310 (using 3rd to 4th gear) 80% of RPM level after post redline shift
AVERAGE HP over the entire operational range: 328HP. This is 92% of its peak HP.
The 928 with bigger than usual HP and much higher torque than HP. 375/ 410ft-lbs
Redline 320HP
Peak HP 375
Post shift HP 345 (using 3rd-4th gear) (71% of RPM level, post redline shift)
Average HP for the entire operational range is 345HP This ALSO is 92% of its PEAK HP!!!!!!!
We end up otaling up area under the HP curve, (via using averages) and that’s the main issue here and shows really, equality if you keep the HP /weight ratios the same. MOST folks will not understand, but if you present in the way ive shown above, it should make perfect sense.
MOVING UP the HP for the 928 to its MAX torque value is UNFAIR, by exactly what the increase is!!! The HP to weight is the same for the average HP as it is for the peak HP value. Using a higher number is a blatant miss use of science and math and this should be obvious.
I hope this helps you understand, WHY i get so deep in these HP /torque discussions. there still is SO much misunderstanding and misapplications of the phyiscs to control parity in racing!
04-01-2016, 12:46 PM
#5
Drifting
Mark,
How many POC events have you raced in the last 5 years? any?
If you really want to enact change, blasting the club with a rambling condescending thread on a public forum is not the most effective approach. Go to some POC events, they are fun and competitive. Enjoy racing your car in the existing class structure and talk to the club officers while you are there. Then when the rules review period opens up, post your clear and concise proposal on the POC forum in the GCR Discussions forum to get a dialogue started.
How many POC events have you raced in the last 5 years? any?
If you really want to enact change, blasting the club with a rambling condescending thread on a public forum is not the most effective approach. Go to some POC events, they are fun and competitive. Enjoy racing your car in the existing class structure and talk to the club officers while you are there. Then when the rules review period opens up, post your clear and concise proposal on the POC forum in the GCR Discussions forum to get a dialogue started.
04-01-2016, 02:35 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark,
How many POC events have you raced in the last 5 years? any?
If you really want to enact change, blasting the club with a rambling condescending thread on a public forum is not the most effective approach. Go to some POC events, they are fun and competitive. Enjoy racing your car in the existing class structure and talk to the club officers while you are there. Then when the rules review period opens up, post your clear and concise proposal on the POC forum in the GCR Discussions forum to get a dialogue started.
How many POC events have you raced in the last 5 years? any?
If you really want to enact change, blasting the club with a rambling condescending thread on a public forum is not the most effective approach. Go to some POC events, they are fun and competitive. Enjoy racing your car in the existing class structure and talk to the club officers while you are there. Then when the rules review period opens up, post your clear and concise proposal on the POC forum in the GCR Discussions forum to get a dialogue started.
it was NOT a blast on POC. It was a clarification discussion of one clubs assessing system, using terms incorrectly ..... pretty standard in the racing world it seems. Ironically, historically, POC has been very methodical about classing of cars with some pretty complicated point systesms.... HP to weight is usually better and easier, but they just took it a little too far and got it wrong (but not unfixable)
It is a hot topic and very misunderstood, but again, i didnt intend to bring it to the racing forum... it was supposed to be ONLY in the discussion with the 928 community
Yes, i have dialog running with POC.. im sure they will do the right thing in the end. personally, i could care less if i run in GT1, as long as im out there wth those guys having fun and racing with them!
Trending Topics
04-01-2016, 03:08 PM
#8
I never intended this to be a racing forum discussion. This was moved by the moderator... it was specific to a discussion where one or two individuals think this is so simple and everyone is in the know. it was supposed to be a 928 thread and mostly pointed at a 928 member.
it was NOT a blast on POC. It was a clarification discussion of one clubs assessing system, using terms incorrectly ..... pretty standard in the racing world it seems. Ironically, historically, POC has been very methodical about classing of cars with some pretty complicated point systesms.... HP to weight is usually better and easier, but they just took it a little too far and got it wrong (but not unfixable)
It is a hot topic and very misunderstood, but again, i didnt intend to bring it to the racing forum... it was supposed to be ONLY in the discussion with the 928 community
Yes, i have dialog running with POC.. im sure they will do the right thing in the end. personally, i could care less if i run in GT1, as long as im out there wth those guys having fun and racing with them!
it was NOT a blast on POC. It was a clarification discussion of one clubs assessing system, using terms incorrectly ..... pretty standard in the racing world it seems. Ironically, historically, POC has been very methodical about classing of cars with some pretty complicated point systesms.... HP to weight is usually better and easier, but they just took it a little too far and got it wrong (but not unfixable)
It is a hot topic and very misunderstood, but again, i didnt intend to bring it to the racing forum... it was supposed to be ONLY in the discussion with the 928 community
Yes, i have dialog running with POC.. im sure they will do the right thing in the end. personally, i could care less if i run in GT1, as long as im out there wth those guys having fun and racing with them!
moderator trying to stoke the fire - lol
04-01-2016, 03:31 PM
#10
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Nope
Just sick and tired of you thinking every piddly argument you have bouncing around in your head deserves as many threads / posts as you seam fit until everyone under the planet agrees with you.
I read the initial post, it's a racing topic - hence moved to the racing forum.
Since you specifically pointed out this discussion is targeted to a single individual - I suggest you send them a PM, telegram, or just pick up the phone. This site is not your personal soapbox.
Go chase windmills somewhere else.
Just sick and tired of you thinking every piddly argument you have bouncing around in your head deserves as many threads / posts as you seam fit until everyone under the planet agrees with you.
I read the initial post, it's a racing topic - hence moved to the racing forum.
Since you specifically pointed out this discussion is targeted to a single individual - I suggest you send them a PM, telegram, or just pick up the phone. This site is not your personal soapbox.
Go chase windmills somewhere else.