ProCoach

While the data would support that positive forward thrust (enough throttle to show positive logitudinal acceleration throughout) DOES make it far less likely that the car would be upset by the curb, that is not a significant factor to the dynamics at work in this incident.

It IS a contributing factor in that there is an extended period of "no throttle," as evidenced by the throttle bar on the OP's SmartyCam HD. He is "along for the ride" for some time before leaving the road...

The OP is, without passing judgement, "asking the car" instead of "telling the car" what to do through those two transitions (left, then right), and THAT led to this loss of control.

In his quest for "smoothness," the steering to the left on the flat is too slow, then it speeds up, in order to catch up. How many of you are aware there is a hump, or elevation in the road, even and at the mid-point of the left hand curb?

Then, compounding this error, steering input is late and SLOW for the turn in to the right, which causes him to carry steering input beyond the crest of the old Turn 7.

This COMBINATION of bad geometry, excessive speed (such that the driver felt like they could not ADD power) and lack of steering coordination with the forces acting on the car, lead to an instability that could not be saved.

It is clear that the significant uphill rise that is present as you turn right (into the new Turn 8) provides an ideal compression to quicken turn-in, in such a way that your goal of opening the wheel to draw a straight line between the end of the right hand curb (new Turn 8) to the mid point of the curbing at the new Turn 9, is possible.

I remember the first Ferrari Challenge race in the fall of 2001. In the two test days before, there wer at least five cars that suffered damage this way.

There is the famous Audi R8 crash that is identical to this one, some say that an instructor was driving the owner's car...

So, this is not an uncommon accident for this section, at this track. Most folks go too slow to provoke this reaction, but if the timing and car placement is correct, along with steering that is proactive rather than reactive, this section can be taken at this rate of speed or greater, without drama.

Beantown Kman

^^^ The Master has spoken.

ProCoach

Let's watch my good friend and client Frank Pray do it right!

Fast forward to 1:35 and 3:40 (which is even better). Look how FAST he turns the car to the right to get over the crest with as LITTLE steering input as possible.

hf1

Great analysis, coach.

Though it could not be saved after it "landed", it was still savable by counter-steering mid-air in anticipation of the off-center rough landing. Not easy, and it may take a tank-slapper or two, but doable to keep the car on the asphalt. Have seen it done and have done it myself many times after cresting the Uphill at Limerock slightly lopsided. A small version of this "technique" is what allows the far-left "touch the dirt" track-out at Uphill by cresting with some lateral force on the car. Not recommended unless you really know what you're doing and you really, really want to pass someone before West Bend.

This goes along the same comments about "driving behind the car" instead of ahead of it and "asking the car" instead of "telling it". When/if your car decompresses (goes up) with some lateral force (not straight), you should know mid-air what's about to transpire upon landing and get ready for it before it lands.

Out of curiosity, and related to the speed in the OP video, wonder what tires was he driving?

ProCoach

Following up on recovery options for the OP, I think the first order of business would have been, when aware of the geometry mismatch from what was planned, to instantly STRAIGHTEN the wheel and take a ride in the grass...

Adding additional steering (and the likelihood of over correction with a "counter steering in mid-air" response), along with more gas when the car has departed the desired path might have caused a bigger impact. At least that's what my data and experience shows!

I am reminded of my fellow coach and instructor Ron Zitza's terrific "Go/No-Go" sight picture and geometry check.

If everything looks good, "Go" onto the next input and reference point. If not, "No-Go..."

The OP did not have a system in place to recognize early enough what was out of kilter. Also, he had no ingrained, automatic exit plan response, like steering straight with neutral throttle.

We can all comment as much as we want, but I commend the OP for his open mind and his courage posting. We can ALL learn.

And he has...

Beantown Kman

Here's an example of the "No Go" decision Pro Coach mentioned. Same exact location as the OP. In my efforts to set a new PB at VIR I was pushing harder and made the classic rookie mistake of pinching in too early when I felt I was going "too fast". For those who aren't familiar with VIR this is a very fast section. Screwing up here requires a split second decision to Go or No Go. It really needs to be instinctive because there's no time to think about it. In 36 years of driving at the track this was my first "off". Could have been worse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJiH...ature=youtu.be

sbelles

While in some cases there is time for a conscious go/no go evaluation, I don't think that there was in this case. Especially when you get behind the car, the decision and the reaction has to be a subconscious one. The only way to develop that butt feeling is to get the car out of shape once in a while but preferably not on a corner with such consequences. That corner can bite hard. I've been off there with a student before and you will notice that the OP followed some existing skid marks off track.

edit: ^I didn't see kman's post before mine. Perfect example of what to do and how small a correction it took to do it if it's done in time.

Racerrob

Agreed. I don't know VIR well but my first thought was that you were not ahead of the car. It will come with better track knowledge and seat time. That Leh Keen video is one of the best examples I have seen of being ahead of the car.

As for getting over it, don't beat yourself up too much. Analyze, learn and move forward. I had a bad crash at the Glen years ago and for me it was helpful to get back on the horse at a few other tracks before I went back to the scene.

I applaud you for asking for help, best of luck!

2BWise

Agreed, it is right at the end of the left curb where the low point is and immediately after the road begins a slight upward transition as the track begins to climb. There is enough of a compression there to be useful in getting the car pointed right early and at a great enough angle such to have the car pointed as straight as possible, for this section of track, to minimize total steering required.

ProCoach

You are speaking of the elevation change that, as you point out, is so critical and allows for the quicker steering input (and subsequent straightening just before you crest) turning to the right.

There is actually a much smaller, gradual rise as you approach the left curb after station 7 and then it falls ever so slightly after, which makes the compression to the right all that much more pronounced.

This smaller, extremely subtle "hump" contributes to how heavier cars tend to feel a little drunk, or less responsive, just before the right turn into the new Turn 8.

But you've nailed it. The physics of the topography are VERY important before committing to a higher level of speed there.

RobT 394

Car placement on the left before turn in on the two rights is critical. And think of these as two right hand turns with straight hands before turn in to get to that placement. The video ProCoach posted is an excellent view of where to put the car before turn in. The No Go video is also a great view (thanks for posting) of being early.

This post is about getting back on the horse. Unfortunately a subject I know all too well after recent incidents. Yes plural.

Ross Bentley had a great article in Speed Secrets a few weeks back. He is spot on. You want to build your confidence before your next track day, not work up to it on that track day. Consider all the error free days you had prior to the incident. Odds are against you having another off given the many laps you have had without incident. Use mental imagery to drive the line perfectly, just like you have so many times before. Use that imagery to build confidence before you arrive at the track. Be assertive, confident and smart out there. If you are tentative and over thinking it you could be in for a long day wondering when you will ever be the same. Start now, drive that lap everyday at or above your PB.

audipwr1

Crashing sucks

The one thing I learned at rally school is that the attitude of the car doesn't particularly matter, look where you want the car to go, move your hands quickly in that direction and balance car with throttle (or brakes)

Might be a nice way to get back on the horse is to spend 2-3 days at a rally school learning to slide and recover

911 Crazy

If you are still driving the Cayman, try to get Jeff Curtis to drive along with you for a few laps. He is King of the Cayman's at VIR!

Manifold

Good discussion. While VIR is a great track, people often see all the open space and perceive the track to be 'safe'. The video shows an example of one of the many walls you can hit, and the speeds of those hits can be high. I approach VIR as though the risks are just as high as other east coast tracks.

For this particular incident, the three biggest triggering factors which jump out to me, and noted by others, are (a) fairly high entry speed, (b) not momentarily straightening the wheel when the car got light at the crest, and (c) not being on the throttle enough to plant the rear of the car when the car got light.

Looking at the Go vs No Go decision, I've very rarely gone off, and haven't busted a car (yet), but my most significant error and off - ever - was in these climbing esses. I bumped up my entry speed in too large an increment (Error #1), and then my steering input to turn right for T7 was too slow for the higher speed (Error #2). Fortunately, multiple warning bells immediately went off in my mind from the situation not looking and feeling right, so I quickly conceded that I had a problem (No Go decision), kept the car fairly straight with minimal throttle, put two off in the grass to the left, then two off in the grass to the right, then rejoined the track at T9 with the car unhurt. Had I not made the No Go decision, compounding my initial errors with further error likely would have had a very bad consequence.

kk2

Nothing to really add here.. but if your car is on r comps it should be able to handle the amount of speed you were carrying. Any other mistakes is another conversation.