What is "safe enough" for a DE
12-09-2015, 12:42 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
I should have that I have lost several friends and acquaintances through the years, including places like Buttonwillow and Thunderhill.
As most know, the greatest likelihood of injury is in the paddock, followed perhaps by cardiac events. Regarding the latter, I'd make sure that even if I wasn't wheel-to-wheel racing, my cardiovascular health was appropriate and my doctors(s) were appropriately aware/involved.
As most know, the greatest likelihood of injury is in the paddock, followed perhaps by cardiac events. Regarding the latter, I'd make sure that even if I wasn't wheel-to-wheel racing, my cardiovascular health was appropriate and my doctors(s) were appropriately aware/involved.
12-09-2015, 12:56 PM
#17
Fully agree on that. But it all comes down to money in the end. Even though people have said this time and time again, there is no compromise on safety. It blows my mind that people will carelessly do 100+ with no cage, harness or Hans. The risk just isn't worth it to me, no matter how fun it may be.
12-09-2015, 02:11 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
You can be as careful as you want, only drive 7/10ths, and feel like you're in control all the time, but you CANNOT CONTROL the guy in front of you who drops oil or antifreeze on the track right before that high speed turn. They certainly didn't do it on purpose, but things happen, and it's the risk of these things that you have no control over that you have to accept if you're not going to drive a fully prepped race car with every imaginable safety measure. Ultimately, it's your choice.
12-09-2015, 03:52 PM
#19
Easy answer: If you feel you're driving too fast for your "comfort zone" (which you should be well aware of with 60+ days), slow down.
If you find yourself getting into sticky situations more and more often, slow down.
If the car is talking to you and you don't like what it's saying i.e the tires are screaming or groaning instead of singing, slow down.
That said, and I apologize if this has been mentioned (I'm sure it has) as I didn't read the entire thread......you're on a racetrack, therefore ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. Though you do a thorough tech before the event, you whack WGI's Bus Stop entry curb real hard and break something. The car in front of you loses oil, coolant, or both, and you're next in line (PLEASE don't ask how I know about that one). And on and on......
Point is, doing this involves some inherent risk that you must be willing to assume; it's your choice to do so or not. As for me, I'm 20 years into this "hobby" and, still, there's nothing I'd rather do more.
Gary
If you find yourself getting into sticky situations more and more often, slow down.
If the car is talking to you and you don't like what it's saying i.e the tires are screaming or groaning instead of singing, slow down.
That said, and I apologize if this has been mentioned (I'm sure it has) as I didn't read the entire thread......you're on a racetrack, therefore ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. Though you do a thorough tech before the event, you whack WGI's Bus Stop entry curb real hard and break something. The car in front of you loses oil, coolant, or both, and you're next in line (PLEASE don't ask how I know about that one). And on and on......
Point is, doing this involves some inherent risk that you must be willing to assume; it's your choice to do so or not. As for me, I'm 20 years into this "hobby" and, still, there's nothing I'd rather do more.
Gary
12-09-2015, 04:49 PM
#20
Drifting
I was just thinking about this today. Mild track prep GT3's are pretty fast, certainly fast enough to put you in a bad situation if something goes wrong. The more I think about it the more safety upgrades I want to make to my car but there's a fine line between a street car that can hit the track and a track rat that must be trailered to events.
So far I have fixed back FIA Recaro seats, OEM club sport back half cage, Scroth 6 point harnesses, coolant lines pinned and a HANS. I'm really debating switching my driver seat to a Halo seat and seeing if I can adapt a center net without cutting up my interior. A fire system would be nice but might be a bit intrusive. I may get at least a bolt in fire bottle as a compromise. I'm not sure if I can bring myself to wear a full race suit, nomex boots, gloves as it looks ridiculous at a HPDE and it's incredibly hot in TX in the summer. I suppose it's still better than BBQ'ing yourself if your car catches fire.
So far I have fixed back FIA Recaro seats, OEM club sport back half cage, Scroth 6 point harnesses, coolant lines pinned and a HANS. I'm really debating switching my driver seat to a Halo seat and seeing if I can adapt a center net without cutting up my interior. A fire system would be nice but might be a bit intrusive. I may get at least a bolt in fire bottle as a compromise. I'm not sure if I can bring myself to wear a full race suit, nomex boots, gloves as it looks ridiculous at a HPDE and it's incredibly hot in TX in the summer. I suppose it's still better than BBQ'ing yourself if your car catches fire.
12-09-2015, 06:21 PM
#21
After reading this I'm installing a full cage in my 996gt3. The car is already 95% track so better to take the risk with a full cage on the street going to an auto cross three times a year. Car is always trailered to track days. Has half cage/ sparco seats/ 6point and Hans.
12-09-2015, 07:33 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 997rs4.0
After reading this I'm installing a full cage in my 996gt3. The car is already 95% track so better to take the risk with a full cage on the street going to an auto cross three times a year. Car is always trailered to track days. Has half cage/ sparco seats/ 6point and Hans.
12-09-2015, 07:46 PM
#23
Pretty much all covered (and very well) above, but remember too that the more time you spend at pace on track, the more tickets you buy in the crash lottery and the more you'll want to protect yourself. Risk is a very personal decision though. Here in New Zealand some people just drive straight off the road and into their first track day (have seen a Testarossa on old tires spin off track just on the 3/4 pace familiarisation convoy lap - he called it a day afterwards).
Minimum first DE recommendations here would be newish brake fluid and to check pads have enough meat left on them. Sometimes that comes with recommendations to wear closed shoes and either cotton or wool in preference to synthetics.
Our regulations here also mean that special certification is needed for many of the more common road-track car mods in the US (like not being able to fit a race seat if the factory seat has the seat belt receptacle integrated - which also rules out a harness in my case), so beyond fluid, pads and alignment there's not much I can readily do to improve my car's track safety.
So I've focussed on active safety (working on car control at Gymkhanas/autocrosses etc), personal safety equipment, and on limiting my exposure.
On the exposure front, while my Turbo might still see 3 or 4 track days a year, one or two dual Sprint competitions and some days of fast rally tours, most of my racing is now done in two caged cheapie Honda Integras that a number of us Porsche owners went shares in. And with 33 minute to one hour races, with grids of up to 45 cars on 1min25 tracks it is actually more fun overall at less danger than dicing with single opponents during Sprints while running roughly 1.15s in a 500HP street spec 996 Turbo.
Whatever car I'm in on track though - even just as a hot laps passenger - I'm normally wearing my racesuit, Simpson Hybrid, gloves, boots, helmet etc. I figure that no matter how silly I may feel geared up at - say - a DE, I'll potentially feel a hundred times sillier explaining to my wife from an intensive care ward that I left thousands of dollars of safety gear at home rather than wearing it.
Actually, to be brutally honest with myself, I don't always get it right as I can remember a few times I've raced without having had time to either, say, attach my helmet tethers or to get my gloves on. But that's only down to race-day schedules writhing around like snakes and catching me out occasionally.
As some have pointed out earlier too, you can mitigate a lot of risk by running at 8 or 9 tenths rather than trying to set a PB every lap. Although I find that practically impossible anyway, being a Type A, when the unexpected happens (once had a front wheel shear right off through the middle of the spokes while a passenger for instance), even at 7 tenths all safety investments are going to be appreciated.
Minimum first DE recommendations here would be newish brake fluid and to check pads have enough meat left on them. Sometimes that comes with recommendations to wear closed shoes and either cotton or wool in preference to synthetics.
Our regulations here also mean that special certification is needed for many of the more common road-track car mods in the US (like not being able to fit a race seat if the factory seat has the seat belt receptacle integrated - which also rules out a harness in my case), so beyond fluid, pads and alignment there's not much I can readily do to improve my car's track safety.
So I've focussed on active safety (working on car control at Gymkhanas/autocrosses etc), personal safety equipment, and on limiting my exposure.
On the exposure front, while my Turbo might still see 3 or 4 track days a year, one or two dual Sprint competitions and some days of fast rally tours, most of my racing is now done in two caged cheapie Honda Integras that a number of us Porsche owners went shares in. And with 33 minute to one hour races, with grids of up to 45 cars on 1min25 tracks it is actually more fun overall at less danger than dicing with single opponents during Sprints while running roughly 1.15s in a 500HP street spec 996 Turbo.
Whatever car I'm in on track though - even just as a hot laps passenger - I'm normally wearing my racesuit, Simpson Hybrid, gloves, boots, helmet etc. I figure that no matter how silly I may feel geared up at - say - a DE, I'll potentially feel a hundred times sillier explaining to my wife from an intensive care ward that I left thousands of dollars of safety gear at home rather than wearing it.
Actually, to be brutally honest with myself, I don't always get it right as I can remember a few times I've raced without having had time to either, say, attach my helmet tethers or to get my gloves on. But that's only down to race-day schedules writhing around like snakes and catching me out occasionally.
As some have pointed out earlier too, you can mitigate a lot of risk by running at 8 or 9 tenths rather than trying to set a PB every lap. Although I find that practically impossible anyway, being a Type A, when the unexpected happens (once had a front wheel shear right off through the middle of the spokes while a passenger for instance), even at 7 tenths all safety investments are going to be appreciated.
12-09-2015, 09:02 PM
#24
If you are willing to spend some time, search for what the different PCA groups around the country specify for their HPDEs. There is quite a variation. Some, like San Diego Calif. do time attacks and have participants with highly modified cars - they have tiers of safety based on a car's capabilities.
This will get you an aggregate of the wisdom of many people with many years of real world experience.
This will get you an aggregate of the wisdom of many people with many years of real world experience.
12-09-2015, 09:08 PM
#25
DE ?
Interesting topic....but, what is DE?
12-09-2015, 09:29 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
DE = Driver Education, well that's what it's called
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
12-09-2015, 09:36 PM
#27
DE = Driver Education, well that's what it's called
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
12-09-2015, 10:25 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
DE = Driver Education, well that's what it's called
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
Basically it's a bunch of guys mostly in (modified) street cars who meet on a rented track for "going fast but not really racing".
Sounds way to scary for the wife, hence the soothing name "Driver Education"
Please wait a few seconds before replying, still putting the flame suit on .....
12-09-2015, 11:52 PM
#29
Flame suit...
I waited...Now that you have your flame suit on, here's a funny story about flame [proof driver] suits and gear.
I got an invite to the Sebring 12hr race in 2002, for their 50th anniversary celebration, as the winner in '77. My wife and I were checking into our hotel and an impatient, red faced, German guy barges up to the desk with a driving suit bag in one hand and race clothing in the other... and in a loud, demanding voice asked..."Can the hotel clean my fire proof underpants?" Everyone looked around and tried not to break out laughing.
12-10-2015, 12:55 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
Driver Ed...now I know! Thanks.
I waited...Now that you have your flame suit on, here's a funny story about flame [proof driver] suits and gear.
I got an invite to the Sebring 12hr race in 2002, for their 50th anniversary celebration, as the winner in '77. My wife and I were checking into our hotel and an impatient, red faced, German guy barges up to the desk with a driving suit bag in one hand and race clothing in the other... and in a loud, demanding voice asked..."Can the hotel clean my fire proof underpants?" Everyone looked around and tried not to break out laughing.
I waited...Now that you have your flame suit on, here's a funny story about flame [proof driver] suits and gear.
I got an invite to the Sebring 12hr race in 2002, for their 50th anniversary celebration, as the winner in '77. My wife and I were checking into our hotel and an impatient, red faced, German guy barges up to the desk with a driving suit bag in one hand and race clothing in the other... and in a loud, demanding voice asked..."Can the hotel clean my fire proof underpants?" Everyone looked around and tried not to break out laughing.