Best Simulator Set Up - Hardware and Software
03-03-2015, 05:00 PM
#31
Drifting
Above all. When you get set up, come drop in with us on Wednesday nights. We have a really great community of rennlisters who have a blast battling it out on track. Think of it as emotional training, you will get the same physiological and psychological responses to stress that you do in any competitive environment and you can learn how to deal with those feelings in a controlled environment.
03-03-2015, 05:05 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Peter i sent you an email when you have some time.
Thanks
Anthony
Thanks
Anthony
03-03-2015, 05:33 PM
#33
@ProCoach - Todd Cannons, eh? Those are old school load cell pedals right?
03-03-2015, 06:05 PM
#34
Most folks I know could care less about the ultra high end stuff, the wheels are a good example.
...
While it's fine for aliens (people who spend all the time on their sims), these are, for most, tools to work at learning tracks better. For that, the basic or mid-level offerings work well, IMO.
...
While it's fine for aliens (people who spend all the time on their sims), these are, for most, tools to work at learning tracks better. For that, the basic or mid-level offerings work well, IMO.
While I do fall into the bucket of "people who spend all their time on a sim", and do a driving school once every two years when I save up enough money to blow, I wouldn't discount the high end necessarily. The reason I say this is that the sim market hasn't yet had high end peripherals that actually deliver high end performance until only very recently (say one or two years ago.) When the stars actually start to align, something very interesting happens, and your brain starts operating and responding differently, than just pedaling some playstation game around. There is a massive, and I mean, massive difference between HE pedals and Fanatec CSPs, vs Fanatec CSPs and something from Mad Katz. There is also an equally different gap between a direct drive that delivers anything over 12Nm of steering torque and has minimal latency, and the high end Fanatec stuff, vs mid to lower end stuff. (I use Fanatec, because they sit at the very high end of reasonable, before you get to ridiculous.) To illustrate graphically the level of difference between equipment performance consider it like so:
<low end stuff> ------------------<Fanatec High End>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<Ultra High End>
You really have to try the ultra high end stuff to really unlock the potential of sims, like iRacing, as something beyond just a tool for learning the track. At some point it gets to even physical endurance, and that in itself plays on mental endurance. On top of the the increased resolution, response, and reduction of lag start to make the virtual cars just drive better, and will require much more similar input techniques as you would on track. Like say the way you would apply brake pressure and trail off the brakes, or how you would roll onto the throttle. Even the high-mid range Fanatec load cell stuff doesn't give you that. You really have to go really high end.
Then again, I do fall into that bucket, and perhaps people like me may just be more sensitive to the differences, but having recently switched to HE Pro pedals and the AccuForce wheel, my simracing has become different, and makes a lot more sense compared to what I've done on my track days. The telemetry also looks a lot better!
Sim technology is still far off the real thing, but its getting better, unfortunately to get to that next level, you have to go to the end of the high end spectrum. Not that you can't manage below that, but as you say, it will be nothing more than a track learning tool. Plus, for anyone who spends $1000 on a set of tires, even the most high end stuff is chump change by comparison.
03-03-2015, 06:32 PM
#35
Rennlist
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Yep, the infamous Todd Cannon. I bought these things back in 2008 when he was building every one of them custom for a variety of top level pro drivers and sim racers. The only other pedals available at that time were Frex, from Japan. I love my CST's! Glad I got them before Todd self destructed...
Masterianvii, I meant no slam... Your posts, blog and reviews are great. It's just that the difference between these is like the differences between a Boxster S, a 991 GT3 and a 918. They all make you smile, but the price of admission (and the ultimate performance capability among all three)is vastly different!
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
03-03-2015, 06:46 PM
#36
I've virtually raced in a private league with a NASCAR Sprint Cup driver who was in his sauna for the entire three-hour race! Hahaha! Talk about duplicating stress...
Yep, the infamous Todd Cannon. I bought these things back in 2008 when he was building every one of them custom for a variety of top level pro drivers and sim racers. The only other pedals available at that time were Frex, from Japan. I love my CST's! Glad I got them before Todd self destructed...
Masterianvii, I meant no slam... Your posts, blog and reviews are great. It's just that the difference between these is like the differences between a Boxster S, a 991 GT3 and a 918. They all make you smile, but the price of admission (and the ultimate performance capability among all three)is vastly different!
Yep, the infamous Todd Cannon. I bought these things back in 2008 when he was building every one of them custom for a variety of top level pro drivers and sim racers. The only other pedals available at that time were Frex, from Japan. I love my CST's! Glad I got them before Todd self destructed...
Masterianvii, I meant no slam... Your posts, blog and reviews are great. It's just that the difference between these is like the differences between a Boxster S, a 991 GT3 and a 918. They all make you smile, but the price of admission (and the ultimate performance capability among all three)is vastly different!
You are right, the price of admission is that significant. I just wanted to highlight that what you get in return is not marginal. It is worth the value, and if someone is serious about their training, they shouldn't settle for less. Except for the Bodnar wheel, at nearly $4500 that thing is ridiculously overpriced and doesn't even include the wheel rim!! 
...but it was the first DD system to market.Another way to look at it is that higher end sim hardware doesn't provide performance, as much as it closes a gap between the simulation and the driver. The closer it gets the more exponential the results are, as it's a two way communication between the driver and the sim.
...
I wish Todd was around a bit longer to at least make that H-Shifter.
03-03-2015, 07:07 PM
#37
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Didn't take it that way, not at all.
it closes a gap between the simulation and the driver. The closer it gets the more exponential the results are, as it's a two way communication between the driver and the sim.
I wish Todd was around a bit longer to at least make that H-Shifter.
it closes a gap between the simulation and the driver. The closer it gets the more exponential the results are, as it's a two way communication between the driver and the sim.
I wish Todd was around a bit longer to at least make that H-Shifter.
Yes, it does...
And yes, I wish that had happened...
03-03-2015, 07:37 PM
#38
I'm in....
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Rennlist Member
On the bargain end, I found that a hand truck makes a pretty decent platform if you have and old Porsche seat sitting around (don't all of us?).
03-03-2015, 10:51 PM
#39
That is genius! This is the most brilliant thing I've seen since the ab roller wheel stand!https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threa...-stand.218882/
06-27-2016, 08:52 PM
#42
I'm in....
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06-28-2016, 11:44 AM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Mar 2010
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For years I did it the most basic way where I only had a G25 wheel clamped to a desk sitting in an office chair and had only one monitor (actually it was a 32" TV). Then the big upgrade a couple of years ago was to switch to a G27 with a load cell installed on the brake. But I was still clamping the wheel to the desk and still sitting in an office chair. There is a lot wrong here. The biggest problem was seating position. I was exposing myself to a lot of fatigue as this seating position causes me to hunch over the wheel. Another big problem was the wheel was clamped to the desk and every once in a while in the heat of the moment I would pull down on the wheel in a corner and the wheel would come loose.
Last month I decided it was time to get a sturdy rig with the most important requirement being in the proper seating position and to have the wheel bolted down instead of clamped. I did a little research and settled on the RSEAT N1 option (though I should have gone with 80/20 tube if I was really hardcore). I was also tempted to go with a high end wheel (something like the DD Accuforce Pro) and highend hydraulic brakes. But now we are getting into the thousands of dollars here and decided instead to meet somewhere in the middle and I ordered the Fanatec V2 Wheel Hub, Porsche 918 Wheel, Fanatec V3 pedals with damper and Fanatec SQ Shifter as these mid range controllers should be better than my current controllers but still not break the bank like the high end gear would. I was thinking I needed triples and I wanted proper gaming monitors with fast refresh rates and not use TVs. But upon reading what people are saying about the immersion of the new VR headsets. I decided to roll the dice and give VR a shot. Plus I could save a little money with VR since I can continue to use the 32" TV as the main monitor and not have to buy 3 new 27" monitors. Finally to power the VR headset, I have built a new computer with the i7 6700 Intel Chip, 16 GB of RAM and I picked up the new NVidia 1080 GPU.
Now this rig mentioned above does not exist yet, at least it's not in my home. The new computer is sitting at home with nothing installed on it except iRacing and Project Cars (oh I do have some VR games and demos also installed). Plus I decided to go with the Vive VR headset over the Oculus except I will need to wait for iRacing to support the Vive. The rig will be delivered to my home hopefully before the end of the week and the wheel, pedals and shifter should also be delivered sometime soon. Hopefully in a week or two it will all be setup and I will be running Nordschleife in a Porsche RUF GT-8 car in VR using Project Cars as well as running the Formula Renault car also in VR at Spa and Monaco as well as a number of other GP tracks while I wait for iRacing to support the Vive.
Is this a game or is it a training tool? I think it is a little of both. I will never drive a Formula Renault car at Monaco, Spa or any other GP track. But visiting Nordschleife is on my bucket list. So all laps I have done to date at the Green Hell in iRacing as well as in Project Cars as well as all future laps I plan to do will go towards preparing me for the real deal.
Last month I decided it was time to get a sturdy rig with the most important requirement being in the proper seating position and to have the wheel bolted down instead of clamped. I did a little research and settled on the RSEAT N1 option (though I should have gone with 80/20 tube if I was really hardcore). I was also tempted to go with a high end wheel (something like the DD Accuforce Pro) and highend hydraulic brakes. But now we are getting into the thousands of dollars here and decided instead to meet somewhere in the middle and I ordered the Fanatec V2 Wheel Hub, Porsche 918 Wheel, Fanatec V3 pedals with damper and Fanatec SQ Shifter as these mid range controllers should be better than my current controllers but still not break the bank like the high end gear would. I was thinking I needed triples and I wanted proper gaming monitors with fast refresh rates and not use TVs. But upon reading what people are saying about the immersion of the new VR headsets. I decided to roll the dice and give VR a shot. Plus I could save a little money with VR since I can continue to use the 32" TV as the main monitor and not have to buy 3 new 27" monitors. Finally to power the VR headset, I have built a new computer with the i7 6700 Intel Chip, 16 GB of RAM and I picked up the new NVidia 1080 GPU.
Now this rig mentioned above does not exist yet, at least it's not in my home. The new computer is sitting at home with nothing installed on it except iRacing and Project Cars (oh I do have some VR games and demos also installed). Plus I decided to go with the Vive VR headset over the Oculus except I will need to wait for iRacing to support the Vive. The rig will be delivered to my home hopefully before the end of the week and the wheel, pedals and shifter should also be delivered sometime soon. Hopefully in a week or two it will all be setup and I will be running Nordschleife in a Porsche RUF GT-8 car in VR using Project Cars as well as running the Formula Renault car also in VR at Spa and Monaco as well as a number of other GP tracks while I wait for iRacing to support the Vive.
Is this a game or is it a training tool? I think it is a little of both. I will never drive a Formula Renault car at Monaco, Spa or any other GP track. But visiting Nordschleife is on my bucket list. So all laps I have done to date at the Green Hell in iRacing as well as in Project Cars as well as all future laps I plan to do will go towards preparing me for the real deal.
06-28-2016, 04:15 PM
#44
Nice swag.
While I do fall into the bucket of "people who spend all their time on a sim", and do a driving school once every two years when I save up enough money to blow, I wouldn't discount the high end necessarily. The reason I say this is that the sim market hasn't yet had high end peripherals that actually deliver high end performance until only very recently (say one or two years ago.) When the stars actually start to align, something very interesting happens, and your brain starts operating and responding differently, than just pedaling some playstation game around. There is a massive, and I mean, massive difference between HE pedals and Fanatec CSPs, vs Fanatec CSPs and something from Mad Katz. There is also an equally different gap between a direct drive that delivers anything over 12Nm of steering torque and has minimal latency, and the high end Fanatec stuff, vs mid to lower end stuff. (I use Fanatec, because they sit at the very high end of reasonable, before you get to ridiculous.) To illustrate graphically the level of difference between equipment performance consider it like so:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You really have to try the ultra high end stuff to really unlock the potential of sims, like iRacing, as something beyond just a tool for learning the track. At some point it gets to even physical endurance, and that in itself plays on mental endurance. On top of the the increased resolution, response, and reduction of lag start to make the virtual cars just drive better, and will require much more similar input techniques as you would on track. Like say the way you would apply brake pressure and trail off the brakes, or how you would roll onto the throttle. Even the high-mid range Fanatec load cell stuff doesn't give you that. You really have to go really high end.
Then again, I do fall into that bucket, and perhaps people like me may just be more sensitive to the differences, but having recently switched to HE Pro pedals and the AccuForce wheel, my simracing has become different, and makes a lot more sense compared to what I've done on my track days. The telemetry also looks a lot better!
Sim technology is still far off the real thing, but its getting better, unfortunately to get to that next level, you have to go to the end of the high end spectrum. Not that you can't manage below that, but as you say, it will be nothing more than a track learning tool. Plus, for anyone who spends $1000 on a set of tires, even the most high end stuff is chump change by comparison.
While I do fall into the bucket of "people who spend all their time on a sim", and do a driving school once every two years when I save up enough money to blow, I wouldn't discount the high end necessarily. The reason I say this is that the sim market hasn't yet had high end peripherals that actually deliver high end performance until only very recently (say one or two years ago.) When the stars actually start to align, something very interesting happens, and your brain starts operating and responding differently, than just pedaling some playstation game around. There is a massive, and I mean, massive difference between HE pedals and Fanatec CSPs, vs Fanatec CSPs and something from Mad Katz. There is also an equally different gap between a direct drive that delivers anything over 12Nm of steering torque and has minimal latency, and the high end Fanatec stuff, vs mid to lower end stuff. (I use Fanatec, because they sit at the very high end of reasonable, before you get to ridiculous.) To illustrate graphically the level of difference between equipment performance consider it like so:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You really have to try the ultra high end stuff to really unlock the potential of sims, like iRacing, as something beyond just a tool for learning the track. At some point it gets to even physical endurance, and that in itself plays on mental endurance. On top of the the increased resolution, response, and reduction of lag start to make the virtual cars just drive better, and will require much more similar input techniques as you would on track. Like say the way you would apply brake pressure and trail off the brakes, or how you would roll onto the throttle. Even the high-mid range Fanatec load cell stuff doesn't give you that. You really have to go really high end.
Then again, I do fall into that bucket, and perhaps people like me may just be more sensitive to the differences, but having recently switched to HE Pro pedals and the AccuForce wheel, my simracing has become different, and makes a lot more sense compared to what I've done on my track days. The telemetry also looks a lot better!
Sim technology is still far off the real thing, but its getting better, unfortunately to get to that next level, you have to go to the end of the high end spectrum. Not that you can't manage below that, but as you say, it will be nothing more than a track learning tool. Plus, for anyone who spends $1000 on a set of tires, even the most high end stuff is chump change by comparison.
Since the quoted post above was written, I've had the opportunity to try out some "high end" gear @ Crimson Simulation, the last time I was in NYC on business. (Rented a car one night and drove up to CT...)
As I currently have a Fanatec CSW V2 wheel base (w/918 wheel) and home-grown pedals (using actual automotive equipment), I was curious to see just how good the "good" stuff was.
And I was totally blown away.
SO blown away I declared a credit card emergency and bought a set of Heusinkveld Engineering "pro" pedals on the spot.
I thought my hydraulic pedals were good... these were excellent. And not even the "top of the line" Ultimates, either. And when I got them installed at home, I was immediately able to threshold brake more accurately.The DD wheels are also impressive. Though I did feel that the CSW wheels he had on display had the forces turned down a bit (certainly much softer than how I have my wheel set), the CSW wheel wasn't bad. Comparing it to the OSW he had hooked up, the OSW definitely felt a little better - more detail stronger forces, etc. but I didn't come away saying "WOW I MUST HAVE IT".
Then I tried the Bodnar wheel. It's BIG bucks but the fidelity is AMAZING. As much as the CSW made my Logitech feel like a toy... the Bodnar wheel made the CSW feel like one.
Same car, same track, same conditions, similar PC builds, all triple monitors with the same platform and motion rigs... I was ~1s faster on the Bodnar wheel in the Miata around Laguna as I was with the OSW wheel. Laptimes with CSW vs. OSW were actually close enough for me to declare "equal".
But the Bodnar wheel is incredible. Tough to describe, but you get a LOT more information coming through that wheel than the others.
IF you really want to TRAIN for real-life driving, and take it seriously... the Bodnar is worth the money.
Next time you guys are ever out east (for a coaching gig or whatever) I'd highly recommend checking out Crimson Simulation to demo some high end hardware.
06-28-2016, 08:12 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Crimson looks like an awesome place. Did you happen to try out their Rexing wheel?
