Player0

I have a 944T with S4 brakes in the front, with HP Hawk Pro pads and 3" brake ducting. At the track, all the modern cars seriously out brake me. Not sure if it's my lack of LSD or their confidence in having ABS.

My silly question is this: Is there any benefit to getting larger brakes or stronger pads? I can easily lock up all 4 wheels as I am now, and I don't experience any fade. I brake about as hard as possible without locking any of the wheels.

I pretty much have the widest tires I can get on 16" rims without going to R compound and I monitor tire pressures. Camber is left neutral. I can shed weight, etc.

But I wonder if there's anything else I need to bother with for the braking system if it's still capable of locking the wheels all day?

Larry Herman

If you can lock your brakes with "relative" ease, and your brakes stay predictable and fade-free, then you have enough brakes. I would question whether or not you have enough rear brakes, but you do say that you can lock all 4. Is that by slamming them on, or through increased progressive pressure?

R tires will make a big difference, and remember that you are comparing a nose-heavy (under braking) 944 to 911s and even Camans, which carry much more weight on their rear tires and so will inherently brake better.

Player0

Thanks, I hadn't thought about the rears working harder on the 911s. When I upgraded to the S4 brakes, I also put the 5/33 biasing valve on there. That valve scared me a bit at first because before the front brakes had fully bedded, the rears would lock before the fronts. But with bedded brakes the fronts lock first.

I should be getting pretty good rear pressure. Maybe it's worth getting an adjustable portioning valve though?

Anyway, I think that confirms my suspicion that I can't buy my way in to better braking directly. I'll have to focus on weight reduction and getting that LSD in.

Player0

Oh, and locking all four, I guess through progressive pressure, though to be honest it's not something I've done a lot of. Mostly I experimented with that after getting the brake valve installed because I wanted to see what happened. But it's bad for the tires

I haven't had the rears lock up without really trying for it. Maybe they're not getting enough pressure. It's a good place to look though, thanks.

Larry Herman

Years ago I put an adjustable proportioning valve in my big braked 914 and set it by bombing down the street and backing off it until the rears did not lock. I found out that this was the wrong way to adjust them as when I got to the track I discovered that I had no rear braking effect. You want to set them so that under smooth application and hard pressure (the way you're supposed to brake) they will not begin to lock until the fronts do. This will give you maximum effect from the rear brakes, and the difference can be dramatic. Remember though that adjusted in this fashion, an abrupt jamming on of the brakes will cause a rapid weight shift and the rear brakes will lock first.

One last question for you, do you have adjustable shocks?

JCP911S

Check your hydraulics and make sure they are ok. Also use high-temp racing fluid and racing pads, and don't let the pads wear below 50%.

Tires are critical. You should have at least a super high or extreme performance street tire or DOT racing compound. Tires over 3 years old can get hard and lose grip.

Also make sure they are not flat spotted. If you lock up a set of tires once, every time you hit the brakes, the tire "finds" the flat spot, and locks up even under moderate braking. They're toast.

Finally, check your braking technique. Many novice drivers over-brake, causing too much weight transfer to the front tires, and this causes understeer upon turn entry. Maybe these other drivers are not "outbraking" you, but simply carrying more entry speed.

Something to condider.

Player0

No, shocks aren't adjustable except for height. They're Bilstein escort cups.

I use ATE super blue and the yellow version of the same. Front pads are brand new, rear pads are a year but still quite meaty (maybe that says a lot eh?). Tires are RE-11s, fronts are 2 years old, rears are < 6 months.

Hmm, I have locked the tires up at least once, and also had a spin. They might have a flat spot. How can you check for that?

I notice that modern cars are braking better because when following them on a straight, they brake and I catch up much too quick. It actually worries me a bit and I have to keep good distance when a modern car is in front of me.

These modern high horsepower cars slow much faster than mine, and tend to carry less speed while cornering than I do, and then they can out accelerate me as well. I know the importance of technique here and I'm not claiming to do it as well as anyone else.

But strictly hardware speaking, these cars can and do stop harder than mine, even though tires and brake systems are somewhat similar.

Larry Herman

Yeah, that's technology. I once went from an 84 Carrera club racer with big brakes and 245 front tires to a bone stock 2004 GT3 with 245 fronts, and it was amazing how much faster that GT3 stopped, and how much more front grip it had with the same sized tires.

333pg333

Having done a few Porsche drive days where you test all the current street models I too was amazed at how well the current crop handled and stopped but remember they have ABS, PASM, PSM and a few billion dollars more spent on R&D than your 1986 951 on small street tyres. If you can buy a 2nd set of wheels and run R spec rubber you will notice your brake limits go up dramatically. Escort cups are old tech too. They are harsh and can bounce around under braking on uneven surfaces which will increase the likelihood of chirping or locking your wheels.

Get your hardware checked and or updated and then get some tuition from a good instructor. That will have you getting the most out of both you and your car.

Player0

Didn't know that about the escort cups and braking. I have 245s front and rear which is the largest I can find in non-R 16" tires which is not unlike some other cars, but going to R is useful because I can get maybe 255-275 in the rear. As well as the stickier compound.

I have the rims but was only promoted to blue a couple days ago so wasn't allowed R compounds until now. I thought about switching to the Rs with the next tire change needed but I'm not sure if I'm ready. I've been relying on the tire squeal to know when I'm at the edge for cornering and I think I'd miss that.

Not that the rear on this thing never becomes a bit 'playful', usually due to the lack of the LSD. So I've gotten pretty good at feeling and feathering the slip. But I'm still just a novice here.

333pg333

You're approaching this well. I can't speak for you, but I found jumping to R spec (Toyo R888) was a good first change from a road tyre. They wear relatively well and will still give you plenty of warning before letting go.

The Escort Cup can exhibit these tendencies but not always. I've found them to ride very harshly compared to say KW's which are a much more modern shock system. There's always a limit to budget of course. An LSD will be something to move to in the future also. There's a lot of mods you can make to these cars but working on your skill set with coaching is usually the best value for money. (My car in the Avatar started as an '86 turbo too. Had a couple of mods since then.) Also, be aware as you go up in grip level you will put more stress on the oil system. Make sure you use an oil with enough viscosity (min 20w/50) with plenty of ZDDP in it. Do a search, you will find days of threads to peruse.

Player0

I use dino 20w50 with ZDDP additive because there are many oil fight threads here I'll be getting a slightly leaky lower balance shaft seal replaced this winter and might move to 0w50 or 10w50 syn, just to see if it leaks out. I added a temp gauge and an extra oil cooler and I'm staying under 210 at the track. Removing the fog lights helped there too.

I went with the Escort Cups more out of ease than budget concerns I think. Just tried and true, no hard suspension numbers to work out, no adjustments, etc. But I can see upgrading to something more modern in the future.

NHMS is such a rough and bouncy track with two major braking zones, neither of which are particularly flat. My steering wheel has a centering indicator on it and I notice that straight braking isn't actually always 'center wheel' on that track.

Yeah, track time and coaching is worth it's weight in gold but I'm excited now to get some more advanced instruction. I seem to have smooth mostly down now.

The nice thing about the 944 is that it's real cheap and I don't have payments so throwing a LSD or getting the Toyos (great idea!) is doable. On the other hand, all the maintenance is really making me want a Cayman GTS

333pg333

Sounds like you've got the right attitude.

Re a 951 vs other cars:

Pros: Cheap to buy. 50/50 balance. Good car to learn control with. Possible to make very fast. Able to run with GT3's without going super crazy budget wise. Satisfying to do so. Cheap to buy replacement engines/parts.

Cons: Old car. Need to do a fair bit of maintenance before even modifying. Have to rely on driver talent rather than rely on electronic nannies. (+ or - on this?)
Cayman is a new car with mid engine layout. Speaks for itself. 944 tend to get treated like poor second cousins by some 911 types. 951 turbo runs hot underhood and have oiling issues under higher g's.

Speeddemon944

I would have to say that getting some good track rubber is the first step. You have added a lot of HP mods and not upgraded the grip to stay on par.

Also some other thoughts regarding your set up
- Pads are a bit soft I think - I run Pagid Blacks and used to run the Hawk DTC 60/70 on the Spec car - made a world of difference in stopping power
- Spring rates look mighty soft for how much weight you're throwing around the track..think double that amount...
- Sways seem right on
- Get some serious rubber on there! Hoosier/BFG are great tires - far cheaper than a Cayman and it will make the car a ton more fun!
- I also run the cups - they are good but may need to be rebuilt - should be pretty inexpensive.

Hope it helps!

Player0

I'd recommend a 951 to anyone looking to do some DE so long as they're willing to get their hands dirty. They are certainly cheap to buy. I know I did things a bit 'wrong' but I have well over 30K in to mine now. Some upgrades, but mostly maintenance, hoses, bolts, that sort of thing. I depressingly keep good financial records on it.

If I could do it over, I'd get at least an 87 T, or better yet an 88 or 89 T with the bigger brakes, M030, and no bloody sunroof. I think it's cheaper to buy it with those parts than to buy em separately. But I really regret not having the ABS and it's the one thing its not reasonable to add.

Mine will out do most other 951s at the track as well as stock caymans, the 4S, etc. It can hold it's own with any of the turbo badges. Though the turbo S seems to be too much for it, as are things like the Cooper S works, etc. But other 951s with the right drivers could probably keep up with those as well. Which is cool.

But it's a fantastic driver's car. I feel like I learn more per session than others do in their modern cars because my life depends on it more. I have no gismos to keep me out of trouble. Instructors tend to drive my car quite 'playfully' and can't stop grinning afterwards. It's just a totally different experience from a modern, stable Porsche.

So maybe it's making me a better driver a bit quicker. I haven't tracked my Evo yet but honestly it feels boring by comparison. It's more powerful, probably much quicker around the track, but it's just not as connecting.

But, a 30 year old car is annoying. The heat chooses to work when it wants. Everything electronic feels tired and sluggish and saggy. The 30 year old head gasket is eventually going to blow to pieces with the 20PSI I feed in to it. Or the #2 rod is going to fail, as they do when not cross drilled like mine. No airbags, abs, stability control and I have the kids to think about. Modern car might not be as fun but might be safer.

On the other hand, I've seen people walk away from 944 accidents without harm. They're built particularly strong. I'm honestly impressed with Porsche engineering. Another reason I kind of regret the evo