JackOlsen

Jaws911,

The flipside of this discussion is that you should never be anywhere near your car's limits on public roads. The one thing a good DE should teach is that most of what you learn on a track should be only practiced on a track -- certainly not in a city, or anywhere near concrete embankments.

On a track, I'm near redline and in four wheel drifts all the time. I might spin two or three times in a day. If I'm on public roads, and my wheels are breaking loose, I'm posing a danger to myself and a lot of people who haven't asked to be part of my little high performance driving session. There's just too much that's out of your control on public roads -- people pulling out in front of you, water, oil, debris, people coming in the opposite direction who might also happen to be pushing the limits. It's crazy enough at normal speeds.

The more I track my car the less I'm inclined to 'drive it like I stole it' on public roads. The odds are stacked too heavily against you -- as well as the bystanders or other drivers you might happen to endanger.

Okay. Enough Mr. Teacher Dad. Rant over. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Z-man

Jaws911:
Will you be at the Glen THIS weekend? (NNJR event) IF so, look me up: I'll one of the crazy ones that runs the Tech line! My car is a Guards Red 944S2, #142.

As said above, get back in the saddle. Seat time is your best solution to this problem.

Last October, while on the back straight at The Glen, I lost my H2O pump. (For you 911 owners, it's what circulates coolant in **cough** most modern cars **cough** ) Car suffered no other damage besides requiring a new pump, but I suffered a bit pschologically: it took me about 3 DE events before I was again comfortable with my car: I just didn't trust it, and was waiting for that red "!" to go on again.

The same type of mis-trust can be applied to your own driving: you miffed a turn, and now you have trouble trusting yourself. That's ok: just get in, drive, and at first, take it back a notch. Try to focus on your driving, and not your own virtual "!" light! That approach is much better than going out and driving at the same speeds prior to the spin, but with nerves that can snap at a moments notice!!

Hope to see you at The Glen!
-Z-man.

PS: What run group are you in?

Jaws911

from the Jacks ( Olsen & Kramer)*:Please do not test your or your car's abilities on the street. You can approach the limits of your car much more safely in the controlled environment of the track.
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The flipside of this discussion is that you should never be anywhere near your car's limits on public roads. The one thing a good DE should teach is that most of what you learn on a track should be only practiced on a track

*I'm sure there is a joke there, but I'm leaving it on the table....


FWIW - I couldn't agree w/ either of you more, I didn't think i was close to those limits (& obviously I was wrong!) , tho i do drive w. more gusto than when I 1st got the car.

One thing was clear from the 1st DE several years ago, and which I"ve already passed on to friends (one of whom liked it so much he immediately traded his Boxster for a Boxster S and didn't tell his wife - he just got it in the same colors!) and that is that track time (at least for me ) totally obviates the need for excessive street speed - you can't even get close (and for what its worth, i wasn't) so why bother. But frankly, due to the weather 9no rides) and the fact that i haven't had any track time at all this year, definitely too much gusto.

A $1,000 lesson about street driving that I think I've already (re) learned, ..the question was about how to get back on the horse now. Thank you all for the advice.

Oh, and I'm not telling my wife either - and she didn't notice.... !

JC in NY

Jack, I agree with most of your thoughts on track driving, and track vs. street driving, but this one thing I cannot get past. I've heard you say this more than once and I cannot believe you think this is acceptable. To me, spinning on the track is not part of the game plan and it should be very rare for any driver, whether he is new or very experienced. Of course we all do it at one time or another but you seem to shrug it off as no big deal. To me a spin at an advanced level is a dire and severe warning that something was not right. To spin 2-3 times in a single day is just unfathomable and counter productive to what you should be doing out there especially at your level. Spins should be very rare events in my book. Very, very rare.

I look forward to any counter opinions.

Alan Herod

I may spin during a weekend. twice at Mid Ohio this year. But as someone else said in so many words, you manage your risks. Some turns have plenty of run-off - others like turn 11 don't...
Watkins Glen has almost no forgiving place to spin, 0 spins the last four years - risk is too high.

My point was, I will push harder in my car then a student's car. If you are continuously drifting or sliding a car around the track you are much more likely to find that new slippery surprise.

JackOlsen

JC, I may have made my statement too simply, there. I typically don't spin two or three times during a track day. But if I'm pushing the limits, there will be points where I'm saving the car, and -- in some instances -- a spin. If I'm in or near traffic, I drive with a different level of caution. If I'm on a part of the track where there isn't plenty of room to slide (preferably paved), I'll play it safer. Walls scare me, and (thankfully) tracks out here don't have trees.

But I think your point is well made. I sounded cavalier in the post about spinning. I shouldn't have. There are moments and circumstances where you push the car to find where it's going to break loose -- and then there are typical track days, where you should not be doing anything that could be hazardous to yourself or your fellow drivers.

The point I was trying to make was that there are circumstances (autocross, skid pads, even the moments when you're all along on the flat desert tracks we have out here) where you can spin and learn from it, but that this should never be attempted on public roads. But my post could be construed as endorsing pushing cars past their limits when there are other cars around, or when there's the risk of hitting something or rolling. I don't want to encourage any of that.

So, I stand corrected.

J richard

JC,

Not to undermine the importance of being safe and in control on the track, but, would you rather be door to door down the back straight into an apex with a guy next to you that has NEVER spun?

Just about everyone who does it for the first time forgets the two feet in rule and zig zags across the track. A skidpad or autocross will teach you a thing or two but as you all know it's a bit different at track pace.

Don't get me wrong, a spin is a mistake, and like most things you have to assess what you did wrong and build upon the experience. And with more experience should come a reduced incidence of mistakes, however then you are pushing limits further. Jacks painful video of his off probably plays over and over (and over and over...(sorry jack )) in his head and I bet he can still feel it in his bottom end when he is close to letting the *** end come around.

Jaws, I would get back out on the track with a instructor that really knows your car's characteristics, explain what you did and why you are bothered by it and have him work it out with you. When I started it took a spin for me to realize I didn't fully understand the tail end of a 911, and it took saving one to finally get it right. Now a spin is a very embarrassing moment.

Ok, all flames on....

Z-man

There are basically two types of toursist that visit the Grand Canyon:
1. Those who immediately walk up to the edge and look around.
2. Those who slowly creep up to near the edge and enjoy the view from there.

There are basically two types of DE drivers as well: those who run on the ragged edge of their ability, and those to slowly work their way up: knowing they aren't at the edge.

As long as the two types of DE drivers don't interfere with each other, everything is cool. But: problems happen when either driver is forced to drive the 'other' way.

Just my $0.42,
-Z.

Brian P

After I spun at Lime Rock, I was basically nervous any time that my car went into a 4-wheel drift. It took me about 4 events to get over it, but YMMV.

Without a doubt, the best thing you can do is keep getting lots of seat time. That includes taking rides with instructors - and if you can find instructors that drive a similar car to yours, all the better.

cmoss

And Yikes! A large part of the learning curve in the beginning is figuring out when you ARE on the ragged edge. And after about 4 DE's I'm sorta starting to get a feel for exactly what the car is trying to tell me. Kinda...
Chris

Jaws911

Thanks for all the responses - I'm off to W/G this PM. and starting slowly )seems to be the consensus) will be no problem !
(Z-man - I'll say hi when I'm there, but since I haven't yet repaired the car - just for fun, see if you can figure on the tech out which one is me from the damage!)

BrandonH

I think crashing is an opportune time to re-appraise both the principals and mechanics of racing.

Regarding principals: On one hand, even at the highest levels of racing, incidents happen. That's why Mark Donahue, Ayrton Senna, Michele Alboreto, Bob Akin et al are dead. Remember The Right Stuff? Navy fighter pilots concluded, ex post facto, that if you were dead, you must not have had what it takes; it's how they dealt mentally with a hazardous occupation where the boundary between luck and skill got fuzzy. But the reality is that racing like bullfighting is a blood sport.

Regarding Mechanics: Trouble is, for most of us, we never even approach a version of the Right Stuff because we just can't get the seat time to develop the car control skills these guys have mastered. When I nosed a car into the Armco at Pocono, I knew exactly what I did wrong, intellectually how to correct it, but still couldn't pull it off.

So I concur w/Jack's soapbox, that the first step is to acknowledge that you are playing a bloodsport, and to some extent you can control the stakes. That's why they invented, for one thing, 13/13 racing.

The second step is learn car control. My personal solution for this is to get as much seat time as humanly possible in karts. I travel a lot, and I keep with me a list of every indoor kart track near airports of every city I visit.
I get in probably 15 hours of kart time a year and think it is the best possible way train your brain and body to interpret what the car is doing.
So yes get back in the saddle, but with... perspective.

During my practice session prior to the Mosport race two weeks back, as I was learning the track, I got some serious oversteer in turn 2, a downhill, full commitment double apex left hander. I caught it, but then had to tighten again to stay on the track at the exit curb: oversteer again, and I caught that too, tip-toing along the edge of the curb at that magical max slip angle (I imagine) of ~6%. I felt like I had used up 100% of both my skill and luck, a clear message to preserve a bigger margin of both in the future.

BrandonH
#77G

Mike A.

Regarding spinning and driving on the edge at the track...
The fastest way through a turn, among other things, is at the limits of tire adhesion, i.e. on the edge. I believe that one will never now if he (she) is driving on the edge in a particular turn unless he has gone over the edge on that turn. That's how you find the edge, you keep pushing the envelope until you have to save the car or spin it.
As J richard pointed out, you don't want to go door to door through an apex with a driver that has never spun. That driver does not know his or the cars limits.

addictionms

from memory now, so forgive me if I don't get it just right, but I think in "Going Faster" they talk about slip angle of a tire, and it is not on the edge of adhesion that you get the fastest path through the corner. There is an optimal slip angle where cornering speeds are fastest, beyond that you get slower again.

Jim

Mike A.

Slip angle is the difference between the direction the tire is pointed in and the direction it actually is traveling. The limit of adhesion is at a slip angle between 6 to 10 degrees. So, at this optimal slip angle, the tire is at the limit of adhesion and is sliding slightly through the turn. This limit of adhesion (at a slip angle between 6-10 degrees) is the fastest way through the turn, from a traction point of view. If you go beyond this optimun slip angle range, you will not lose total adhesion, the car will slide more and will be slower through the turn. This is what I meant by driving beyond the limit or beyond the edge.
Like I said before, in order to know the limits of adhesion, you need to go beyond the limit then dail it back alittle.
You don't have to spin the car to know where the limit is. You just have to slide it beyond the optimal slip angle. Of course, a spin occurs when you go too far over the limit.