ProCoach

Great post. Most folks who've not driven outside PCA Club Racing lack this perspective. There's a lot to be said for the program. Just treat it carefully.

NaroEscape

I am in agreement here. I race for fun. Nobody is paying me, it's my car, and any damage I have to pay for. If I'm coming into a turn and you stick your nose in, I give the 'car width and an inch' (or as best as i can guess an inch is, probably more like a couple feet... ). If you can make the pass, good for you. If you have to back out, good for me. But...you did get there so as John said, you are probably faster anyway.

Had a long talk with Spencer Pumpelly about race craft once, and that's what he does/talked about "car width and an inch".

Yes, it would be nice to see stuff like this published in the rule book. But as I see it, the overriding principal in CLUB RACING should be to COEXIST. Period. Simple.

The Stewards (and all the Race Staff) in PCA racing have a tough job: they VOLUNTEER to do this. This isn't their day job, not what they do for a living, not been trained since they were in High School, etc. They do it for the benefit of the racers out there having fun.

Regarding rules for 13/13, they CERTAINLY are not black and white, and I think the stewards do a very good job of finding all the facts before making a judgement. I had the 'pleasure' of being involved in an incident that was not black and white - very similar to this discussion to be honest about who has the right to a turn. I did not have video (EVERYONE should have video on EVERY session, btw..spend a few $$ to make your life easier). On the surface, and the immediate thought was that I was at fault, but the steward did a wonderful job of tracking down all the evidence, talking to racers, corner workers, etc to determine what exactly happened, that I was not at fault and it was a "racing incident", that's all.

So I'm not sure I see the need for a petition. Sure, would be nice to see the words "coexist' and such in the rule book. But what disturbs me reading through this is that it seems many DON'T know that, and are more concerned about verbiage than doing what makes common sense...

mglobe

I agree with virtually everything here, particularly the part about giving room if your opponent has his nose in, and also about the VOLUNTEER stewards, and the difficult job that they do well.

In the recent posts, we have seen incidents where it at least appears to many that room was not given by one or both parties, and yet there was no 13 awarded. That's a bit disturbing to those of us who subscribe to the "give room" and use good judgement school of thought. It LOOKS as if, (and I'll emphasize LOOKS since maybe there is another angle where things look differently) it's possible to race without following the "give room and use good judgment" philosophy, make contact, and avoid a 13. Will publishing the rules help clear this up? Maybe, maybe not. It seems to me like it wouldn't hurt though.

Gary R.

And more disturbing to those of us that have received 13's for the same type (chop in carousel) of incident, let alone a blatant dive-bombing...

esscape26

I don't think the stewards try that hard, sorry, even if you do something for free, you have to do a good job. They are human and treat people they know better than those they don't.
My favorite was when I got hit and called up the stairs, like 1-mile walk and then up 7 stories. The other driver was there and the steward was making an announcement on the loudspeaker for the other driver's witnesses by name to come on up. The steward asked me who my witness was, I gave a name and the steward said, well go down and get them yourself.

I said I'm too tired (out of breath) and that was the end of that.
Fortunately, the other guy's witness did pretty good on my behalf, so the other guy got the 13/13.

al@cpt

+1000000000000000000

Glen

You must differentiate 13's from 1 1/2, 2 years ago prior to those issued now. Now the steward has more flexibility regarding single car 13's and rub outs. I much prefer the new age.
You can easily avoid most incidents with coexistence and racing room but sometimes we all make mistakes. I've had 2 13's and both times upon reflection there was something I could/should have done to make racing room, coexist or be patient...

Glen

I disagree and think they do a great unbiased job. Just ask any steward or club race chair... They've gotten their 13's also , inspite of their position and supposed power...

SoClose

I completely agree with Glenn's insights. This is Club Racing, folks. We are all friends out there, whether we have ever met, or even if we don't like each other. If you are going to pass, do it when you are certain that you will get it done. If not certain, then don't do it. Hard and fast rules will lead to on-track decisions based on the rule and not common sense and the Spirit of Club racing.
For those that believe that the stewards don't put much effort into this, volunteer to be a steward/scrut/timer, something. Learn for yourself what goes into these decisions from an inside position. Too many f***ing whiners here. I suspect that past incidents, sanctioned or not, play some role. To me, the 13 is a 'bonehead' rule. Get them out of our Club. Put them on ice for 13 months, and if they don't reassess and learn why we're doing this, excuse them permanently.
When Brian does his: 'Take care of eachother out there', I wish he would emphasise that more than he does. If you don't understand what he means, maybe you should go elsewhere as well.
This is Club Racing.

esscape26

I have volunteered to do a lot. And it's my opinion in some cases, not enough thought or consistency was put into the decision, as in carrying over a body of knowledge from previous decisions. Alot of this is that there is no transparency and when there is nothing to go on, facts turn into stories turn into myths, and perhaps we think a decision happened that did not. It has nothing to do with not being friends with others or hitting people recklessly or even quitting the club because you have a different opinion on this topic. You have to talk it out.

I did not know that rubs or hits to other cars were now OK. That definitely changes how people will drive.

consolidated

I think everyone here is saying just about the same thing on how they race...if there's significant overlap give a car's width, but it's not what the rules say.

Sean F

+1 and that's an issue - why not make the rules how we want to and how many of us do already

Charles A. Toupin

I'm a bit late on this post, but just to say that some people here got a bit upset in the "petition" as a mean to get a message through. But IMHO, I think it did started a discussion that is of some importance to us Club Racers and maybe (hoping) that the point will be taken in consideration by PCA in some form or another. I think that the goal behind this was to ultimately have something clear regarding the passing procedure.

Just sayin'

c.

Charles A. Toupin

This article from PRN with Randy Pobst view is, IMHO, the way to go. And I would add the co existance to that. And this is where it becomes confusing... I'm pretty sure Randy Pobst clarified his views in SportsCar since then, but I can't find these articles.

c.

analogmike

I signed it, I can't possibly get any less favoritism from the officials. I have seen and heard too many different interpretations of the rules from both racers and officials.