winders

So?

Experience is in no way a reliable indicator of skill, knowledge, or teaching ability.

Scott

67King

So?

So...........so the post I quoted reflected an opinion that perhaps other regions promote people more quickly than his home region. His home region happens to be my home region (I'm not a member of the local one which does not host track events), and I'm in instructor there, having gone through the same DE program he is, and from what I've been told, Leh Keen went through.

Regardless, my point was that people get promoted when they are ready, period. Regardless of region, regardless of number of times at the track. Some people get moved up very quickly, as I indicated, which happened to many of the instructors I know. Some people take a very long time to be moved up, as I indicated, which occasionally results in students who have more track time than their instructors. I had one guy with as much experience with me, a friend (and fellow instructor) had a student last year with MORE track time than him.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Seems we are probably on the same page with that. Sorry you found what I wrote to be ambiguous in that manner.

winders

67King,

Based on some of the stuff I read in this thread and that long thread from 2006, it appears that some people think drivers should have X number of DE events in each group before moving up. In other words, you don't move up until you X amount of experience, regardless of skill exhibited.

I, personally, have a real problem with that. I think advancement should be based on merit, not time served. Just because the typical driver needs X DE events experience to advance from A to B does not mean every driver should have to do X days.

I don't know if drivers in all regions get promoted when they are ready. That just isn't clear from these threads. I pretty much skipped the PCA/NASA DE deal so I have no experience dealing with the culture present in these organizations. I get the feeling there is at least a little bit of the "you must pay your dues" attitude out there. Is that not the case?

Scott

67King

Not from the instructors. At least from my observation, I know of no instructors who have that mentality. There are students who are anxious to move up before they are ready. But I recall having gone through it as a student thinking that I should have been a student longer than I was.

I think the impression you get may come from how some instructors handle some students. Some students go there, and they want nothing more than to have fun. Some want to go and learn how to drive. Some go there, and they want to move up, and get mentally hung up on it. I have a very good friend who got hung up on that. One of the most important things instructors have to do is continuously encourage students. And that can be hard at times! But when one has a student who gets hung up on advancing and you have to encourage him, I can see how people get the impression that there is a "pay your dues" aspect.

A factor that, IMHO, contributes to that is how fast some of the cars that are out there are. Freakin' 997 GT3's and Turbos in Group 1? That power is a serious crutch that impedes development, IMHO. If it were up to me, I had every student starting in a 944 NA, Miata, or similar momentum car. If a student has a 450 horsepower, say Z06, and is passing, oh I dunno, Scions, he forms the impression he is fast and ready to move up.

But overall, I don't see instructors holding back students for any other reason that they just aren't ready.

Manifold

I've driven with about six PCA regions in the northeast, and recently started instructing with two of them, and never got the impression that any of them generally advance students too quickly or hold them back. But experience is still considered in advancement, since a skilled but insufficiently experienced student may not be ready to deal with unfamiliar situations. IMO, better safe than sorry, and having a free instructor in the car (who can solo the student as appropriate) isn't a bad deal.

aj986s

I guess I can say that I've some experience to draw from. Started as successful autox'er in early '80's, then SCCA road raced in late '80's.......then raised a family for nearly 20 years.......then got back into a sports car in 2005. Since then done road racing again, became a PCA Instructor and was our PCA Region's Autox chair for 6 years.

Driving skill is wide ranging. Some are comfortable, some are not. Some are overly worried about damaging their car. Some are worried about how dirty thier car will get. Others want to learn to drive better. Others want to race. Some just like going fast without worrying about getting a ticket.

At DE's, we generally handle each student individually, trying to match instruction and promotion to their individual skill level. When I got back into driving after the long hiatus, I thought I was still a hot shot. I had good car control, but at my first couple of events, I spent too much time trying to impress my instructor, largely by correcting my small mistakes. One instructor, at a new-to-me track, actually yelled at me during the second session, saying if I didn't settle down, I wouldn't be allowed on the track. It suddenly dawned on me that DE's were about driving well, versus just going fast. So I got on the smoothness bandwagon. By the end of that weekend, my instructor and I were having a blast!

Generally, our Club handles promotions as follows:

Green Group (Instructed): Ranges from total newbies to folks with several weekends completed. Can be a challenging group to drive in because of the wide experience range. Primarly goals to move beyond Green are (1) being comfortable and aware in traffic, (2) giving and taking appropriate passing signals, (3) learning fundamentals of the course line, (4) understanding track features, like corner workers, flags, blend lines, etc., (5) good pre-track fundamentals like checking the car, tire pressures, seating position, etc., and (6) establishing a reasonable pace on the track.

Blue Group (Instructed): The track fundamentals have been demonstrated, and the student is ready to learn more "technique". The ultimate goal is to establish a safe but fast driving pace, by learning things such as threshold braking, smooth driver inputs, and repetition of the correct course line. In Blue, student becomes more aware of subtle nuances in driving changes, such as different turn-in points, and what can happen as a result. In our Club, Blue is where a student must learn and demonstrate the skills appropriate for promotion to the solo run groups. Some take longer than others.

White Group (Solo): Driver is now given the priviledge(responsibility) to be on the track without an instructor assisting them. But we encourage drivers to always solicit instructors to ride with them to continue refining technique, and help prevent development of bad habits. Also, encourage riding with an instructor occassionally as an additional teaching tool. At occasional events, we'll conduct an unannouced "White Blitz" where instructors will jump into passenger seats, to insure everyone is driving as they should.

Black/Red Groups (Solo): These groups comprise solo drivers who have demonstrated exceptional driving skills and can maintain a fast, safe pace. Most are instructors. In these groups our Region allows passing anywhere, with a point-by of course. So in addition to individual driving skills, drivers learn how to coordinate passes so that the faster car gets by quickly, without much loss of pace by either driver.
Red Group consists of more of the higher powered cars and race cars, where the pace is fastest. Though some low powered cars can get in Red due to drivers ability to maintain situational awareness and is very strategic about faster cars approaching from behind, and getting them by with minimal fuss.

Our Club does have some "guidelines" about days in each Group relative to promotion. But its just a guideline. Some drivers can exhibit skill readily that invites promotion. Sometimes, we get a driver from outside of our Club, and we have to make decisions based on second-hand information. Some people misunderstand because Group designations between the Clubs have different meanings for the same color. Some drivers who are insistent that they belong in a higher run group may be from a more loosely run program with fewer cars on track in a session.

Whereas some drivers are comfortable with their skills, and modest about where they belong. My wife, who also instructs, had a driver we'd never seen at our events before. He had some experience, and was placed in Blue Group. At the end of the first session, she advised the C.I. that the driver really knew his stuff, and deserved a checkout ride. The rest of the weekend he was in White Group, although he did seek out instructors to ride with him occasionally for additional pointers.

Other drivers have "too many" days in a Group that begs the question "Why?"; we'll spend some extra time/effort with them to assess the reasons. Sometimes it takes some additional teaching methods to get past a fear or such. While other times, rarely and as a last resort, we may suggest that track driving is not their forte, and suggest they reconsider instead of being a danger to themselves and others.

Bottom line, is that each DE weekend be a good experience. That everyone take away a bit more learning and skill. That incidents are as few and inconsequential as possible. And that everyone heads home on the last day with a big smile on their face.

TXE36

I've never sensed this either and I've been one of those anxious students. I started asking about getting bumped up from Yellow to White (LSR PCA is Green, Blue, Blue-Solo, Yellow, White, Red - Greens are the newbies, Reds the instructors) in August of 2011. I was a pretty fast Yellow driving a momentum car, a 1999 BMW M3 dual/purpose car. I actually made White in August of 2012. Looking back, I was nowhere close to being ready in 2011 and by the time I actually made White I was a much better driver and I was keeping up with the Whites during my check ride. There are a 1/2 dozen TX PCA instructors that made this possible. They were all patient, all professional, and all could articulate exactly what I needed to work on to be ready for White.

The fact is people learn at different rates. I instruct at a Car Control Driving School that LSR PCA puts on at the Houston Police Academy that teaches basic car control skills using skidpads, a slalom course and a small apexing course. It's very rewarding and fun and advanced Yellow and White track students can become instructors. Where am I going with this -- one of my Driving School students made White before I did. He and his wife were one of my first students and they are now regulars at TWS - I get a lot of satisfaction out of that as well -- it's rewarding to share the fun.

This sport teaches so many life lessons. I would not have made White by pissing and moaning about how unfair it was that so and so got there before I did. It required focusing on the goal and working toward it while forgetting what everybody else was doing.

As a participant, I also appreciate the safety of PCA events. I know the people in the run groups are there because they are qualified to be there.

-Mike

mglobe

You did a great job of being patient and working hard to achieve your goal!

User 52121

Karen, you said you felt "bored" and that your instructor "didn't say much".

Some students and instructors just don't "gel". Maybe reach out to the chief driving instructor in your region and let him/her know your experience, and ask for a different instructor next time?

Some instructors are quiet. Some more vocal/critical. Some wait for you to ask questions first. Some just aren't all that confident as instructors and don't have much advice to offer. Some just want to sign you off so they can go hang out with their buddies. But the chief instructor should know the personality of most of his instructors and be able to help find you a better fit. Sounds like you want someone who gives more critical feedback (which IMO is great! Shows you really do want to learn!)

As everyone else has said, don't worry so much about moving up. IMO some of those "middle" groups are the scariest of all - lots of folks who got solo'd/signed off early are out there driving over their head, are over-confident, and doing things they shouldn't be doing.

85Gold

Just because an instructor is certified doesn't mean he is good. I had an Inst once at a PCA event and he just sat in the car looking at his watch and said nothing for a whole day. Not my best experience. I did send an email to the CDI after the event expressing my views. Then I have had instr that were awesome and the ones I liked best didn't try to fix the whole lap just work on one part at a time.

Peter
and I for sure wasn't doing that good.

Manifold

Wow, that's terrible. Hopefully it was a long time ago. I've had about two dozen instructors, PCA and otherwise, and all were good to excellent.

Also, for liability reasons, I believe PCA no longer uses the term "certified" for its instructors.

User 52121

Some people are instructors simply because they want the title. In my motorcycle days we called it "big head syndrome" because most of the instructors couldn't instruct for beans but liked walking around like a big shot.

Some people get thrown into the instructor role because the region is short-handed for an event and just grabs someone who has some basic track experience vs an actual interest or aptitude for instructing.

And some instruct or are asked to instruct because they happen to be fast.... Which is not good criteria for judging one's ability to instruct, but its common anyways. There are some instructors into region that I can drive circles around, but are fantastic instructors (whom I happily take instructing advice from myself).