Video: van Overbeek and Brauns Love Porsches and Racing their Spec 911 cars
12-21-2011, 01:49 PM
#16
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Precisely where I was going, Scott.
We are warned without end here regarding PCA GT classes..."oh, don't go there", and yet here we have a highly praised spec class, with similar 25 year old platforms, costing arguably more at the mid-pointy end.
I have yet to hear anybody say, "gee, it would be nice to see GT3S spread out further".
Just sayin'...
We are warned without end here regarding PCA GT classes..."oh, don't go there", and yet here we have a highly praised spec class, with similar 25 year old platforms, costing arguably more at the mid-pointy end.
I have yet to hear anybody say, "gee, it would be nice to see GT3S spread out further".
Just sayin'...
12-21-2011, 02:09 PM
#17
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The bumpers on those two cars are Jerry Woods exclusives that they are going to be putting to production pretty shortly. There's other guys running just your average run of the mill Shaw or GT fiberglass replacement bumpers.
The fit and finish of these two cars shouldn't really be taken as indicative of the whole 911spec series at large. There's a huge range of vehicles in the series with respect to paint, bumpers, how far they go with the cages, etc. etc. The two cars in this video are really the cream of the crop of the cars.
There's a couple guys who run the series who still drive their 911sc spec racers to the event and drive it home at the end. Part of the beauty of the series is that you can take a car like an SC or 3.2l Carrera, strip the interior, install cage and safety equipment, do a few suspension and brake tweaks and start racing. Becuase of the gearbox and engine limits of the series it does a lot to prevent an arms race in the series and keep it affordable for the guy off the street.
The fit and finish of these two cars shouldn't really be taken as indicative of the whole 911spec series at large. There's a huge range of vehicles in the series with respect to paint, bumpers, how far they go with the cages, etc. etc. The two cars in this video are really the cream of the crop of the cars.
There's a couple guys who run the series who still drive their 911sc spec racers to the event and drive it home at the end. Part of the beauty of the series is that you can take a car like an SC or 3.2l Carrera, strip the interior, install cage and safety equipment, do a few suspension and brake tweaks and start racing. Becuase of the gearbox and engine limits of the series it does a lot to prevent an arms race in the series and keep it affordable for the guy off the street.
But some guys just run with 15-20K beaters.
What is the best platform to start with in this serie? Does the G50 gearbox is allowed?
c.
12-21-2011, 02:15 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I wish the rules were better/different. As it stands now, there is little incentive for PCA D and E stock class racers to convert their cars... especially after seeing videos like that. Screw that.
The PCA Spec911 car counts are non-existent. What about a different set of PCA "Spec911" rules that would be more welcoming to current PCA racers? Maybe "East Coast Spec"?
Are these PRC guys ever racing PCA out there? Would they even care?
The PCA Spec911 car counts are non-existent. What about a different set of PCA "Spec911" rules that would be more welcoming to current PCA racers? Maybe "East Coast Spec"?
Are these PRC guys ever racing PCA out there? Would they even care?
12-21-2011, 02:16 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The two cars in the video are very nice. Rich Walton (leader of the Mercer Motorpsorts team that just won the NASA 25 hour race for the third time) and Jerry Woods do excellent work. You can be sure that the oil cooler set up is sorted when the folks at Jerry Woods Enterprises (JWE) are involved.
Jeff Gamroth, Carl Van Austen and the folks at Rothsport up in Portland have also built some great Spec 911 cars for customers. And Jeff and Carl have their own really nice cars as well.
There was an article on this class in Excellence a few years back-- check it out if you have back issues.
Mat Lowrance up at Reno Rennsport has built a Spec 911 for his son, and though it is still in development, it appears that it will be every bit as capable as the front-running cars built by others, yet at what is likely a fraction of the cost.
As I am sure many of you agree, the choices folks make in terms of spend range on a number of continuums. One has to do with how much work one does him or herself. We have several guys that run up front that do all or most of their own work. Companies like Reno Rennsport, JWE and Rothsport have some of these customers in addition to the "all-in" customers like Martin and Tom.
Another continuum has to do with what really matters to go fast. This can be an exhausting topic with lots of perspectives. I can assure you that there are plenty of characteristics of these "all in" cars that cost plenty of dollars that make no material difference in the cars' capabilities. Like the paint and the FI systems. Often the latter are chosen as a matter of convenience for the tuners. I definitely appreciate the former.
I am pretty aware of what makes a true difference in the class, versus what is just "nice to have." Same for our GT Limited Class (no, you don't need a rear sway bar, big Reds or a dual master cylinder brake set up). We could argue for an eternity, and I'd still be right. As planned, the lowest common denominator is not Motec, fancy intakes, nice paint, flush windshields, slippery bodywork and the like. It is the driver.
I encourage anyone interested in this class to avoid making assumptions on cost. We have several racers that have done recent builds almost entirely on their own, and the costs incurred are nowhere near what a full build would be with the various companies. If you are truly interested, study the problem before jumping to conclusions.
The class has become a lot more competitive during its 10 years of existence. The greatest escalation has been in driver skill and experience, not in cost.
Thanks to Matt Monson and Guard Transmission for support, and also sponsors like JWE, Rothsport and Reno Rennsport. The full list of sponsors can be found on the PRC web site.
Happy Holidays and enjoy the video. These two retired CEO's really love the sport. They could be sailing yachts.... but they love racing their Spec 911s.
Jeff Gamroth, Carl Van Austen and the folks at Rothsport up in Portland have also built some great Spec 911 cars for customers. And Jeff and Carl have their own really nice cars as well.
There was an article on this class in Excellence a few years back-- check it out if you have back issues.
Mat Lowrance up at Reno Rennsport has built a Spec 911 for his son, and though it is still in development, it appears that it will be every bit as capable as the front-running cars built by others, yet at what is likely a fraction of the cost.
As I am sure many of you agree, the choices folks make in terms of spend range on a number of continuums. One has to do with how much work one does him or herself. We have several guys that run up front that do all or most of their own work. Companies like Reno Rennsport, JWE and Rothsport have some of these customers in addition to the "all-in" customers like Martin and Tom.
Another continuum has to do with what really matters to go fast. This can be an exhausting topic with lots of perspectives. I can assure you that there are plenty of characteristics of these "all in" cars that cost plenty of dollars that make no material difference in the cars' capabilities. Like the paint and the FI systems. Often the latter are chosen as a matter of convenience for the tuners. I definitely appreciate the former.
I am pretty aware of what makes a true difference in the class, versus what is just "nice to have." Same for our GT Limited Class (no, you don't need a rear sway bar, big Reds or a dual master cylinder brake set up). We could argue for an eternity, and I'd still be right. As planned, the lowest common denominator is not Motec, fancy intakes, nice paint, flush windshields, slippery bodywork and the like. It is the driver.
I encourage anyone interested in this class to avoid making assumptions on cost. We have several racers that have done recent builds almost entirely on their own, and the costs incurred are nowhere near what a full build would be with the various companies. If you are truly interested, study the problem before jumping to conclusions.
The class has become a lot more competitive during its 10 years of existence. The greatest escalation has been in driver skill and experience, not in cost.
Thanks to Matt Monson and Guard Transmission for support, and also sponsors like JWE, Rothsport and Reno Rennsport. The full list of sponsors can be found on the PRC web site.
Happy Holidays and enjoy the video. These two retired CEO's really love the sport. They could be sailing yachts.... but they love racing their Spec 911s.
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
We do have several regular Spec 911 participants that race in PCA events. As far as I know, they thoroughly enjoy the events. We had quite a few in the PCA-sanctioned Rennsport Reunion IV, where the class was won by our 2011 series champion, Berham Soonawalla, MD.
As far as rules more favorable to alphabet car conversion, I do not know of specific issues that create huge barriers. I think the biggest barriers are motivation, momentum and culture.
As far as rules more favorable to alphabet car conversion, I do not know of specific issues that create huge barriers. I think the biggest barriers are motivation, momentum and culture.
12-21-2011, 02:36 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
12-21-2011, 02:55 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Sorry Matt, a correction. We do allow G-50s. Several of our competitors run them.
From our 2011 rules (note that we are making a slight change for 2012-- stay tuned):
IV. Transmission and Clutch Specifications
a) The transmission must be a Porsche 915 up through 1986 models. 1987-89 cars may use the Porsche G-50 transmission. The transmission must use Porsche design synchronizers.
b) Differential is free.
c) Clutch package is free except G-50 must use a stock steel pressure plate. Stock flywheels must be used on all transmissions. Flywheels must remain unmodified with no removal of any material except for resurfacing of the friction surface and remain within factory tolerances. No drilling for mounting of alternate design clutch units is permitted.
d) Transmission cooler’s, lubrication, and shift linkage is free.
e) The 915 transmission must use an 8:31 final drive ratio. The G-50 transmission must use the 9:31 final drive ratio.
f) The following gear ratios are acceptable in any combination:
915 Transmission G-50 Transmission
1st gear 11:35 12:42
2nd gear 18:33 or 18:32 17:35
3rd gear 23:29 22:31
4th gear 26:25 or 26:26 32:36
5th gear 28:23 36:32
I always recommend starting with Guard Transmission for all transmission needs... love the parts and support!
From our 2011 rules (note that we are making a slight change for 2012-- stay tuned):
IV. Transmission and Clutch Specifications
a) The transmission must be a Porsche 915 up through 1986 models. 1987-89 cars may use the Porsche G-50 transmission. The transmission must use Porsche design synchronizers.
b) Differential is free.
c) Clutch package is free except G-50 must use a stock steel pressure plate. Stock flywheels must be used on all transmissions. Flywheels must remain unmodified with no removal of any material except for resurfacing of the friction surface and remain within factory tolerances. No drilling for mounting of alternate design clutch units is permitted.
d) Transmission cooler’s, lubrication, and shift linkage is free.
e) The 915 transmission must use an 8:31 final drive ratio. The G-50 transmission must use the 9:31 final drive ratio.
f) The following gear ratios are acceptable in any combination:
915 Transmission G-50 Transmission
1st gear 11:35 12:42
2nd gear 18:33 or 18:32 17:35
3rd gear 23:29 22:31
4th gear 26:25 or 26:26 32:36
5th gear 28:23 36:32
I always recommend starting with Guard Transmission for all transmission needs... love the parts and support!
12-21-2011, 02:57 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
As far as platform is concerned, I would start with the early 70's non-sunroof coupe or whatever chassis Mat Lowrance at Reno Rennsport recommended. Since it isn't always possible to start with "optimal," I would understand the trade-offs with the choices I actually had.
12-21-2011, 03:01 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
And I cannot emphasize enough... the greatest escalation we have seen is in the driving. We have been at this for 10 full seasons, and since I could not race at the last event this year, I got to watch both of our groups go at it, both days. That Spec 911 race was absolutely spectacular in terms of competitiveness and driver skill (physical and mental). Very well done. With more to come I hope.
12-21-2011, 05:41 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Do they carry a weight penalty or anything like that to compensate for the superior gearbox?
12-21-2011, 06:04 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Getting the weight of my car down to 2350 lbs with me in it would be a really huge barrier. I would also need new headers, new struts, and new wheels.
12-21-2011, 08:14 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Here is what we used for weights in 2011:
Minimum weight of cars with drivers is as follows: cars with 2.7 engines 2300lbs, cars with 3.0 and 3.2 engines 2350lbs, cars with 3.0 engines and 3.6 intake plenums 2400lbs. These weights are at the end of any qualifying or racing session.
We aren't planning to change for 2012. I think some of the later cars with G50's have challenges on weight, but no showstoppers thus far. We do not see performance advantages of 915 vs G50 or vice-versa.
I cannot comment on a particular conversion except to say that we have had folks convert successfully. In at least one case I know of the person liquidated his non-complying stuff and got the stuff he needed. Of course, converting any air-cooled Porsche 911 from one racing class to another involves many variables and considerations. But one thing that we can all take advantage of is the fact that there is an active marketplace for perfectly adequate used parts.... even wheels like the Fuchs.
The engine specs seem to give many hours, and the tire specs really help to keep costs down. I don't foresee a reason for 17 inch sizes.... what would anyone gain?
In any case, we have seen growth, and expect more. And we expect more fun, close racing.
Minimum weight of cars with drivers is as follows: cars with 2.7 engines 2300lbs, cars with 3.0 and 3.2 engines 2350lbs, cars with 3.0 engines and 3.6 intake plenums 2400lbs. These weights are at the end of any qualifying or racing session.
We aren't planning to change for 2012. I think some of the later cars with G50's have challenges on weight, but no showstoppers thus far. We do not see performance advantages of 915 vs G50 or vice-versa.
I cannot comment on a particular conversion except to say that we have had folks convert successfully. In at least one case I know of the person liquidated his non-complying stuff and got the stuff he needed. Of course, converting any air-cooled Porsche 911 from one racing class to another involves many variables and considerations. But one thing that we can all take advantage of is the fact that there is an active marketplace for perfectly adequate used parts.... even wheels like the Fuchs.
The engine specs seem to give many hours, and the tire specs really help to keep costs down. I don't foresee a reason for 17 inch sizes.... what would anyone gain?
In any case, we have seen growth, and expect more. And we expect more fun, close racing.
12-21-2011, 08:27 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
And before I forget... if you want the facts on what it costs and what its like... ping the folks that are doing it! Anyone can join the PRC and participate on the forums. And several driver-builds are chronicled in forum threads on the internet. Some of it is drudgery, but I reckon most of it is... highly enjoyed. Like folks that like building ships in bottles.
One of the cool things about Spec 911 is the relationship many of the drivers have with their cars... just like Tom and Martin. If they wanted, they could race the latest factory iron or whatever, but they have relationships with their Spec 911 cars.
One of the cool things about Spec 911 is the relationship many of the drivers have with their cars... just like Tom and Martin. If they wanted, they could race the latest factory iron or whatever, but they have relationships with their Spec 911 cars.
12-21-2011, 08:37 PM
#30
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It does indeed look like a fun series - and I do hope it speads this direction.
On the other hand, I'm building up a GT4 car, so I hope to see many more of them out this way also.
On the other hand, I'm building up a GT4 car, so I hope to see many more of them out this way also.