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All three are good. I like the way DvM presents his information, even if it's the way he drives the track, and Scott has been doing this for awhile. Safe is Fast is good, albeit biased towards aspiring pro racers.
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
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I like these vids. The presentation, break down and fluid play to conclusion. Sure it’s how DVM drives but there’s a ton of info for anyone looking in.
It's too bad that the Racer 360 site hasn't attracted more viewers. Hopefully word will get around. Even the Safe is Fast site doesn't get more than a few thousand views on its videos, which is really a shame because they are so well done.
This latest video from the Racer 360 site is really interesting. He talks about how he learns a new track. What I find most interesting is that he breaks each corner down into 4 segments, not 3, and that he works backwards from the exit.
This latest video from the Racer 360 site is really interesting. He talks about how he learns a new track. What I find most interesting is that he breaks each corner down into 4 segments, not 3, and that he works backwards from the exit.
Regarding speed through corners. I find that even though I am taking a similar or the same line as some faster drivers, I can't carry as much speed through the corners as a better driver would/can.
When trying to get a little extra speed into a slower corner:
By entering a little faster, the car tends to lose grip and I will run wide
By using more throttle through the corner, the end starts to step out on me
On faster corners I feel as though I am pushing the car hard, the car does 4 wheel drift to the track out/rumble strips and I feel like that's all I had short of putting 2 off. But when comparing my data with some videos of a much better driver, he is doing 5-10 mph faster in each corner than I am. I am tracking a m240i and have been told its because of the weight (3800 lbs with me in it) or tires (ExtremeContact Sports). However, I refuse to blame the equipment.
Are you comparing your street car on mediocre tires to eric foss's GTS2 car on continental slicks? I was the guy in the black exige there this weekend and even I struggle to match some of those corner speeds on A7's... That is not a comparison you should be making
I see you are in HPDE 2. Next nasa event ask for an instructor (they will typically give them to you in HPDE 2 as well) and try to work with them to understand things like this, what is a realistic goal, and where you can legitimately improve. You will get nowhere trying to go 84 through big bend in a street car.
While I don't expect to get his sort of times, the gap is just so huge that I can't imagine that the majority of it is equipment related. I may be wrong, but I think if I handed him the keys to my car, he could put down low 1:20s. Yes, his GTS2 is way lighter and is finely tuned but I also have 50% more power and the shop I go to happens to be the one that worked with Foss to develop the setup on the GTS2/GTS3 cars. Eric Foss is a pro driver, but I don't want to use that as excuse and say that I was able to go 10/10ths of the car's current ability.
My current set up is Ohlins, GC camber plates, and the BMW LSD. 245/40/18 front 255/35/18 rear. Alignment is -2.7 camber 1/16 toe out on the fronts and -2 camber 0 toe on the rear.
I saw you out there, we briefly said hi when I was walking by. Fantastic car btw... Did you see Foss put down that 1:10 in the GT3R? It wasn't even set up yet.
It's not just the speed comparison notated at single points (although some differences are pretty large deltas). It's the DURATION of time AT the lower speed.
Here are the corners where I feel like I am pushing as hard as I can while still being in control. I don't see how he can stay on track going 90 down ricochet or not lose the rear on the other two turns.
Here are the corners where I feel like I am pushing as hard as I can while still being in control. I don't see how he can stay on track going 90 down ricochet or not lose the rear on the other two turns.
Tires make a huge difference. If he is on slicks and you are in street tires you don't stand a chance.
Are you comparing your street car on mediocre tires to eric foss's GTS2 car on continental slicks? I was the guy in the black exige there this weekend and even I struggle to match some of those corner speeds on A7's... That is not a comparison you should be making
I see you are in HPDE 2. Next nasa event ask for an instructor (they will typically give them to you in HPDE 2 as well) and try to work with them to understand things like this, what is a realistic goal, and where you can legitimately improve. You will get nowhere trying to go 84 through big bend in a street car.
I signed up for 2 because I always sign up for the lower run group in a new organization just so that I don't over play my abilities and wind up holding people up. But, I did get moved to HPDE 3 before the first day was over though. Regardless of what run group I am in, even solos, I always ask for an instructor. There is a long list of things I need to work on that's for sure (number one on my list right now is being smoother off of the brake).
The reason I posted the question wasn't necessarily because I thought I could do 84 down big bend but that there must be a sizable gap in how hard I think I am pushing the car and how much further it could really go. I'd really love to blame the tires or the weight of the car but there must to be something else missing. What's the delta between slicks vs R compounds vs summers?
It is very hard to compare times since the only people running summers are the ones that have never tracked before. Most people with a little bit of experience already have R compounds on. I want to be sure that I am the fastest I can be on summers before moving to Rs and then slicks, but unfortunately, I have no benchmark as to what fast really is with a summer tire set up.
I signed up for 2 because I always sign up for the lower run group in a new organization just so that I don't over play my abilities and wind up holding people up. But, I did get moved to HPDE 3 before the first day was over though. Regardless of what run group I am in, even solos, I always ask for an instructor. There is a long list of things I need to work on that's for sure (number one on my list right now is being smoother off of the brake).
The reason I posted the question wasn't necessarily because I thought I could do 84 down big bend but that there must be a sizable gap in how hard I think I am pushing the car and how much further it could really go. I'd really love to blame the tires or the weight of the car but there must to be something else missing. What's the delta between slicks vs R compounds vs summers?
It is very hard to compare times since the only people running summers are the ones that have never tracked before. Most people with a little bit of experience already have R compounds on. I want to be sure that I am the fastest I can be on summers before moving to Rs and then slicks, but unfortunately, I have no benchmark as to what fast really is with a summer tire set up.
As I said delta between compounds is huge, but I like your thinking as far as trying to maximize your abilities on street tire before jumping to R comp or stickier.
I recommend that folks starting out stay with street tires as long as they can to learn how to manage slipping around to develop better car control but at lower speeds. However, once you can easily predict and catch slides or work out of understeer then it's time to move to R comp. NT01's are the gold standard for HPDE r comps. Re71rs are another excellent tire that some think are slightly faster but I don't think last as long as NT01's.
Let me just re-iterate my own and Kevin's point though at intermediate level this should be obvious to you, you cannot compare corner speeds of your very heavy, under tired car to Foss or any other GTS2 car. Doesn't matter how much power you have because cornering speed has very little to do with power but everything to do with weight, suspension, aero and tire compound assuming lines are the same. I am not surprised your equipment is 5-10 mph slower through the higher speed corners. So in this case blame the equipment. But also know that part of driver development is to understand these things.
So you want differences between compounds?
I'd say that 1:32 is an ok time on your setup. I doubt Foss could match his GTS2 times in your car but he could probably go faster.
R comps would be worth another 3-5 seconds over summers. So 1:27 to 1:29 all other things being equal for you.
Scrub Hoosiers would get you to 1:25's.
Sticker Hoosiers would get you to 1:22's.
Shaving 800 pounds and going full track prep would get you to 1:17's. See Ken Orgerons video.
In NASA GTS and TT/ST, the cars are classed by wt to power. I believe GTS2 is 14:1. So Foss' car probably weighs 2800 lbs. let's assume your car is putting 350 to wheels , your wt to power is ~11. If you look through TT2 (8:1) and TT3 (10:1) , you'll see mid 1:25's for a lot of these drivers even they are all running Hoosiers or R comps. But Tt4 and Tt5 guys were breaking into teens, because of their lightness (and drivers). MSRC doesn't really allow the ponies to run free. Light cars with sticky tires will have an advantage over car like yours.
02-13-2018, 10:18 PM
