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I liked the ABS in the rain on my 78 911, when I heard the wheels stop turning I let off the brake..
Revisiting a previous posting, I am not sure I would ever suggest using any ABS as a gauge for maintaining high, sustained gSum in the sensitive transition from braking to cornering...
In other words, trailbraking exercises should not include the continuance of threshold braking (actuation of ABS, even "smarter" and higher sample rate Motorsports ABS) PAST the point of the assumption of significant cornering loadings. Wet or dry...
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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I may be fairly heavy on the brake...but it has never been something I've had a lot of negative feedback on when with instructors...I try to stay out of ABS in the M3 but admit to coming in hot at times....
I think what may have happened was we put a pedal extender on the throttle and the pedals are almost touching now. I was warned I might "accelebrake" with my foot on throttle and brake. I'm thinking maybe that happened and before I realized it consciously and my subconscious picked up something was wrong and mashed on the brakes. I've had one other brake lock up so far but released w/o incident....
The turns I struggled with were Bus Stop and Diamond's Edge. We were going CW. In the first turn of each I could brake and help bring the back end around, but once around I felt I was too slow and I was just puttering around the second turn.
Sugar and Spice - I was happy with the amount of speed I was able to carry through there even though the first turn is also approx. 90 degree....
The key to the bus stop CW is to go slow enough through the right hander that you can get on the gas as quickly as possible in the left hander leading to the sweeper. If you don't do this properly, a car in front of you can just leave you on the sweeper. For me, trailbraking into that right hander works well in maintaining as much entry speed as possible, but still be slow enough that I can get back on the gas quickly. It is very easy to overcook that first right hander and if you get off the concrete patch there it is very easy to spin or be grandma slow getting your stuff back together.
Diamond's Edge is two turns done as a single turn. The speed at the kink at the end of the back straight depends on your courage and how much brakes you have. I touch the apex curb at the kink, do most of my braking in a straight line while looking to my right at the complex exit. Make one right hand arc while trailbraking (T5) and be back on the power at the apex of the second right (T4) hander. I take that exit and the following kink (T3) flat out in the dry. In the wet, the kink at the exit of Diamond's Edge can be slippery and it is off camber, but in the dry it is no biggie.
(I hope this makes sense, I went to the MSR Houston website to get the turn numbers and they don't appear to have maps anymore - go figure).
I'm curious what the coaches think of these approaches.
Never driven one but just love these western tracks with tons of run-off space and nothing to hit for miles, so you can run them both CW and CCW without a problem.
I had this video on my youtube channel. One the first lap you get a decent look at how Mike Merrritt takes these corners. Mike is driving the silver M3 that I pass and then let him back by (he was all over my *** coming out of Sugar and Spice). He has been driving that track since it was built and IIRC his best is ~1:48 which is really good. I did better in the Bus Stop and Diamond's Edge on my second lap than my first.
Never driven one but just love these western tracks with tons of run-off space and nothing to hit for miles, so you can run them both CW and CCW without a problem.
Well, there are some walls , but Watkin's Glenn it ain't. I think TWS, MSRH, and COTA are safer than a lot of tracks, but they do eat cars occasionally. At both TWS and MSRH, the grass isn't as benign as it looks, however it doesn't bite like those blue bushes.
Well, there are some walls , but Watkin's Glenn it ain't. I think TWS, MSRH, and COTA are safer than a lot of tracks, but they do eat cars occasionally. At both TWS and MSRH, the grass isn't as benign as it looks, however it doesn't bite like those blue bushes.
-Mike
I'm not a fan of the wall along pit straight, but I am friends with the gravel trap at the end of Sugar and Spice.... I did some grass mowing around Gut Check after I flat spotted my front tire and tried 40 TW scrubs on the front and 100 TW on the rear...don't think I lost too much time.
I guess I need to restart my computer again - your video shows up as an exclamation point. ;-/
I hadn't run MSRH since I was a blue student until recently in the M3. I had 1:48s CW and 1:47.XX CCW. I felt like I still had a second or 2 I could get out of it (current set up, temps and driver ability - I'm sure car can do more ;-)) in the M3 on NT01s.
In the M3 Bus Stop I was indifferent to and just felt it was an annoying fiddly bit you had to deal with. Diamond's Edge in the M3 feels awesome. Coming around T4 is easy to throttle steer and the car floats around if you get it right.
I couldn't do this in the Miata. I'm thinking need to increase the radius of the turn through T5-4, although I was trying to follow the line of the other Miata driver.
I do think if I can figure out how to keep the momentum through these turns it will help me in the M3.
Maybe instead of focusing on getting the back end around with the brakes in Bus Stop I should focus more on figuring out how to get on the throttle sooner?
Ok, I was finally able to pull up your vid, Mike. It looks to me like that guy is going faster than 1:48....
I posted my vid on a local website w/ Miata drivers. So far minor corrections needed. I'm thinking I'm just expecting to be able to pull out of slow corners in the Miata like I can in a car w/ 250-300 more HP.
I do realize I've carried my bad habit over of focusing on braking and maintaining corner speed vs getting on the throttle ASAP. I was told even in a Miata you have to slow enough to be able to get back to throttle ASAP. That, or be able to maintain the higher min corner speed and still get on the throttle ASAP....
Maybe it is the same thought process I had with the double brake spikes..."I got this higher spee...uh...nope."
I used to get 8-10 track days out of a set of Nitto NT01's. I just destroyed the rears on the 5th day and after 20 heat cycles. Even wear. Part of it must be the faster pace but I'm wondering if similar pace is achievable while still having the tires last longer? Does "over-driving" mean going over the grip limit too far and more often than is necessary? Is the goal to straddle the grip-limit closely without going over it too much (and kill the tires)?
Another question, how do racers manage tires in enduros? I tried to do a full 1hr session at DE yesterday but the tires were starting to get loose after 35+mins even with properly adjusted pressures. Maybe it was the shot tires? Asphalt temp was 134F, too.
How do racers "cool off" tires while still racing? How much do they ease off the pace? 2secs per 1min of laptime? For me, anything less doesn't really make a difference on tire grip.
I used to get 8-10 track days out of a set of Nitto NT01's. I just destroyed the rears on the 5th day and after 20 heat cycles. Even wear. Part of it must be the faster pace but I'm wondering if similar pace is achievable while still having the tires last longer? Does "over-driving" mean going over the grip limit too far and more often than is necessary? Is the goal to straddle the grip-limit closely without going over it too much (and kill the tires)?
Another question, how do racers manage tires in enduros? I tried to do a full 1hr session at DE yesterday but the tires were starting to get loose after 35+mins even with properly adjusted pressures. Maybe it was the shot tires?
How do racers "cool off" tires while still racing? How much do they ease off the pace? 2secs per 1min of laptime? For me, anything less doesn't really make a difference on tire grip.
Couple of things here. To me, over driving the tires means consistently carrying a lot more slip angle that the tire can handle. That said, NT01 are an excellent and durable tire that will take a LOT of abuse. However, they have very soft sidewalls, and it is relatively easy for very stiffly sprung cars for them to go away quickly. They tend to work better on softer cars in my experience.
Regarding your other questions, sometimes we underfill cold pressures a little bit, giving away some pace in the first few laps in order to have good tires at the checker.
how to bring them back? one way is doing slightly later and shorter apexes, for example, squaring off the corners a bit. This means you spend less real estate at maximum steering lock for the corners and have longer straightaways, which cool tires. Even getting 5-10 degrees of temperature out of the tires can make a huge difference. that doesn't mean you have to sacrifice lap time, just change style a bit. But you really have to be ahead of the car and aware of minute changes to grip and tire feel literally every corner...
Couple of things here. To me, over driving the tires means consistently carrying a lot more slip angle that the tire can handle.
Thx VR. I think "lot more slip angle" is the same as "going over the grip limit to far". You can't tell the former without feeling the latter, no?
That said, NT01 are an excellent and durable tire that will take a LOT of abuse. However, they have very soft sidewalls, and it is relatively easy for very stiffly sprung cars for them to go away quickly. They tend to work better on softer cars in my experience.
I agree. I used to get 12+ days out of NT01's on my stock Boxster S at a fairly decent pace for Black (top 25%-tile). I have 600/800lb springs with Motons on the 6gt3 now. Maybe I should be more biased towards the softer settings on the Motons and see it that helps with tire life going forward.
Regarding your other questions, sometimes we underfill cold pressures a little bit, giving away some pace in the first few laps in order to have good tires at the checker.
Yes, after the first session I just keep bleeding air out as the day gets warmer to keep the hot pressures at 35 all around.
how to bring them back? one way is doing slightly later and shorter apexes, for example, squaring off the corners a bit. This means you spend less real estate at maximum steering lock for the corners and have longer straightaways, which cool tires. Even getting 5-10 degrees of temperature out of the tires can make a huge difference. that doesn't mean you have to sacrifice lap time, just change style a bit. But you really have to be ahead of the car and aware of minute changes to grip and tire feel literally every corner...
Interesting. Though I don't see how you won't sacrifice lap-time. If there was a way to get the same laptimes while keeping the tires cooler, I'd be doing that style all the time.
I agree. I used to get 12+ days out of NT01's on my stock Boxster S at a fairly decent pace for Black (top 25%-tile). I have 600/800lb springs with Motons on the 6gt3 now. Maybe I should be more biased towards the softer settings on the Motons and see it that helps with tire life going forward.
Interesting. Though I don't see how you won't sacrifice lap-time. If there was a way to get the same laptimes while keeping the tires cooler, I'd be doing that style all the time.
First point: in my experience changing Moton settings alone won't fix it. When I tried NT01's on my M3 with Motons and 700/800 lb springs, they sucked regardless of setting, whereas the Hankook Z214 with much stiffer sidewalls were magic.
Second point: that is IMO one of the things that differentiates the great drivers from the good ones...
First point: in my experience changing Moton settings alone won't fix it. When I tried NT01's on my M3 with Motons and 700/800 lb springs, they sucked regardless of setting, whereas the Hankook Z214 with much stiffer sidewalls were magic.
So I may be already tad "over-sprung" for the NT01s. How would Hoosier R7 compare on this subject? If I'm going to only get 5 days out of a set I may as well go with the R7.
Second point: that is IMO one of the things that differentiates the great drivers from the good ones...
Yes, though the "squaring off" suggestion seems counterintuitive for BOTH cooler tires and faster laptimes. Wouldn't that require sharper braking and acceleration and jerkier movements overall. I'm no expert but my feeling is that it's the smoothest (the least jerky) driving that optimizes tire temps and speed.
I could drive "pseudo-cool-down laps" 2 secs off the pace per 1min all day long and still have tires/grip left. Maybe the pros are good at playing with this area between 0 and 2sec off, but I don't think even the best ones can get something for nothing compared to their best quali times when trying to get their tires back. It's all relative, of course.
08-05-2015, 05:10 PM
, but Watkin's Glenn it ain't. I think TWS, MSRH, and COTA are safer than a lot of tracks, but they do eat cars occasionally. At both TWS and MSRH, the grass isn't as benign as it looks, however it doesn't bite like those blue bushes.
I did some grass mowing around Gut Check after I flat spotted my front tire and tried 40 TW scrubs on the front and 100 TW on the rear...don't think I lost too much time. 
