First track day at Laguna Seca, any advice?
#61
Race Director
Thread Starter
The other thing that I forgot to mention is that the Central Coast Driving folks put on a great event. Things were on time, and there was always somebody available for questions. They really emphasized the safety aspect of the day. And AFAIK all sessions went full time with no need for a tow truck.
Bravo!
Bravo!
#62
Nordschleife Master
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If you make a corner a constant radius corner as exemplfied by the Green line you will not be able to accelerate until the exit of the corner which is not the fastest way through. If a corner leads onto a straight you want to accelerate as soon as you can, so you have to do one of two things. 1) Turn in later and apex later so the radius will become larger on the way out of the corner. This is shown by the Yellow line. Or 2), Rotate the car mid-corner to accomplish the same thing coming out. Take the Red line and show the car rotating at the apex and picking up the exit of the Yellow line and you get the idea. If someone in front of me took that late apex approach during a race I'd be past them like Grant took Richmond....
#63
Rennlist Member
JR, you missed the point. Mark was advocating this for first timers...novices. And he is dead wrong.
#64
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Understood, and as I said I don't coach (car sick) so I have no opinion. But....too many drivers never leave that late apex line and it inhibits their learning curve for racing. It takes lots of practice (and tires) to learn how to carry more speed early into the corner trail braking and rotating at the apex. Once learned, you'll realize it's faster albeit more costly in tires....
#65
Rennlist Member
both if you VR, sunday were in a car with me, it would be clear to understand. on the internet, it might not be clearly conveyed.
I won't comment on the best student approach as I'm not qualified, but Mark's not wrong about turning in earlier rather than late apexing a turn.
If you make a corner a constant radius corner as exemplfied by the Green line you will not be able to accelerate until the exit of the corner which is not the fastest way through. If a corner leads onto a straight you want to accelerate as soon as you can, so you have to do one of two things. 1) Turn in later and apex later so the radius will become larger on the way out of the corner. This is shown by the Yellow line. Or 2), Rotate the car mid-corner to accomplish the same thing coming out. Take the Red line and show the car rotating at the apex and picking up the exit of the Yellow line and you get the idea. If someone in front of me took that late apex approach during a race I'd be past them like Grant took Richmond....
If you make a corner a constant radius corner as exemplfied by the Green line you will not be able to accelerate until the exit of the corner which is not the fastest way through. If a corner leads onto a straight you want to accelerate as soon as you can, so you have to do one of two things. 1) Turn in later and apex later so the radius will become larger on the way out of the corner. This is shown by the Yellow line. Or 2), Rotate the car mid-corner to accomplish the same thing coming out. Take the Red line and show the car rotating at the apex and picking up the exit of the Yellow line and you get the idea. If someone in front of me took that late apex approach during a race I'd be past them like Grant took Richmond....
and yes JR, i agree. when folks in a race take the traditional line shown, i run right by, show the door and push on through. or worse case, make up a lot of ground and get right on their bumper.
Im all about safety, so much so that I do sacrafice the "line" and promote car control and speed cornering knowledge first. this might be contrary to most coaching, but it seems to work better in my opinion. later, comes the line.
Understood, and as I said I don't coach (car sick) so I have no opinion. But....too many drivers never leave that late apex line and it inhibits their learning curve for racing. It takes lots of practice (and tires) to learn how to carry more speed early into the corner trail braking and rotating at the apex. Once learned, you'll realize it's faster albeit more costly in tires....
#66
Race Car
Mark,
The late apex line in a typical ~90 degree corners has you braking earlier than the early apex line. So there is more room to recover form a entry speed mistake. The late apex line affords you the most run out room as well.
Go to any professional driving school and I can pretty much guarantee they teach using the late apex line with newer drivers and as a method to feel out corners on a track you have not run on before. This is not because it is less safe than than the early apex line.
What you advocate is just plain dangerous.
Scott
The late apex line in a typical ~90 degree corners has you braking earlier than the early apex line. So there is more room to recover form a entry speed mistake. The late apex line affords you the most run out room as well.
Go to any professional driving school and I can pretty much guarantee they teach using the late apex line with newer drivers and as a method to feel out corners on a track you have not run on before. This is not because it is less safe than than the early apex line.
What you advocate is just plain dangerous.
Scott
#67
Rennlist Member
Understood, and as I said I don't coach (car sick) so I have no opinion. But....too many drivers never leave that late apex line and it inhibits their learning curve for racing. It takes lots of practice (and tires) to learn how to carry more speed early into the corner trail braking and rotating at the apex. Once learned, you'll realize it's faster albeit more costly in tires....
#68
Rennlist Member
Mark,
The late apex line in a typical ~90 degree corners has you braking earlier than the early apex line. So there is more room to recover form a entry speed mistake. The late apex line affords you the most run out room as well.
Go to any professional driving school and I can pretty much guarantee they teach using the late apex line with newer drivers and as a method to feel out corners on a track you have not run on before. This is not because it is less safe than than the early apex line.
What you advocate is just plain dangerous.
Scott
The late apex line in a typical ~90 degree corners has you braking earlier than the early apex line. So there is more room to recover form a entry speed mistake. The late apex line affords you the most run out room as well.
Go to any professional driving school and I can pretty much guarantee they teach using the late apex line with newer drivers and as a method to feel out corners on a track you have not run on before. This is not because it is less safe than than the early apex line.
What you advocate is just plain dangerous.
Scott
I would like to see you with the guy with the 700hp firebird, that thinks he knows it all, when you instruct him to late apex. had I not guided him down the early apex path, many times we would have been in the weeds. the bigges problem, I see, is folks knowing the line and insisting that they go there. (regardless of speed) the early apex gives a little more room to make the turn, if the wrong speed to turn in, happens.
Every driver and car is different. I adapt to my audience, but in generally, if they can handle a slightly earlier turn in, I like it becasue I do feel its safer. in some cases it wont be the fastest way around the track, but sometimes, in racing , it certainly can be, as JR points out.
lasty, this advice didnt come out of talk of beginners, it came out of advice for a driver wanting advice at laguna for his first time there, not the first time on the track. it evolved in to a discussion with Mike and Me regarding turn 3. for the reasons JR described, a slightly early apex for turn 3 is not always a bad thing. . For teaching new drivers, i stand by the reasons stated. I seemed to have a pretty good record with guys I've driven with for their first times.