Circuit Motorsports

But it is 'off the shelf'. Call up Willans and say, hey I want this, here's my CC and it's on the way. Same with Schroth, etc.

WHB Porsche

I wouldn't consider ordering something to your specifications to be "off the shelf," even if the manufacturer typically does that sort of business. Further, I understood your above post to be saying that certain parts are available because F1 specs them, and then suppliers choose to mass-produce them.

My point is that if Kevlar belts were safer than traditional belts, F1 teams would spec Kevlar, and thus it would be available to the general public from Willans, Schroth, etc.

I can't order Kevlar-webbed belts from Schroth, and that leads me to believe that the degree of deformation in current belts is a safety feature, rather than a limitation of current materials.

G. Baker or Joe - can you respond specifically to the quote from Schroth?

Geo

Wow, I haven't been here in some time and stumble along this thread....

SFI does zero testing, or at least at the time they tightened the belt standard, they did ZERO!

I did a lot of research on this at the time. I even called SFI and had them send me the pertinent information. ALL testing is done by the manufacturer. Let me say that again..... ALL testing is done by the manufacturer.

SFI is NOT like the Snell Memorial Foundation which does test products.

SFI is ALL about money. The belt thing is near and dear to my heart. SFI changed their standard based upon a VERY dated test of nylon of a different sort used on racing belts to arbitrarily change the standard. NO testing was done to establish the strength that should be required for racing belt certification. Therefore, it is truly impossible to know or estimate at what point nylon belts become unsafe. For all we know, the nylon in belts could lose 75% or more or their initial strength and still be completely safe for racing. I have followed this sport closely almost as long as I could breathe and I have never heard of an injury or death in motorsports due to the belt material failing (other than failure caused by an outside source during the accident).

I would have been able to accept the SFI ruling on belts if there was any scientific testing done, but there was NONE. ZERO. NADA. ZIP. Hell, the test for belts at the time they tightened their standard was simply hanging a weight off the belt. Yep. Makes you all warm an fuzzy about your SFI certified belts doesn't it. Boy, they do a lot to ensure our safety. I do believe this has changed, but it IIRC it's still a pretty lame test.

I have not read through this entire thread before posting this, so if I'm repeating, please forgive me.

All of this said, what Impact has done is pretty sleezy. I suppose Impact could swing a deal with the FIA, but I doubt the FIA would want anything to do with them. I wouldn't.

Geo

Have you seen the actual SFI specs, including testing?

I have, at least those that existed at the time the belt certs where tightened. I assure you that nothing of the sort was spec'd. I also assure you that SFI tested nothing (at least at that time).

gbaker

George!! Where ya been, man?

Geo

Hey Gregg!

Took a break from racing for a while. Now I've been racing LeMons and loving it!

I suppose I should change my sig as well. For one thing, I've taken a break from working on the car due to things in my personal life. I guess it should say "Under Destruction." Secondly, I don't think I'm going to configure it for SCCA IT anymore. I won't reveal what I'm currently working on in my head, but I think I'm going to take it another direction and I'm at a fork in the road with the car.

gbaker

Sounds like a hoot -- and a good lab for safety gear.

Best of luck with whatever direction you go, sir. As long as it brings you to RA in November.

Bill L Seifert

I've been through this discussion before, belts do deform, or stretch. The idea is is to slow you down, not stop you "NOW". I got this information from the military. They want belts to stretch, cockpits to deform, and in some cases (Blackhawk Helicopters) have seats that slide on tubes kinda like shock absorbers, all in the effort to slow your body down. Too stiff of a car killed Neil Bonnett, and probably Kyle Petty. Belts slow you, helmets deform, steering wheels collapse, crushable frame components crush. Stuff flying off, also slows impact, as do safer fences. Add all that together and something un-survivorable may be survivorable. There is a limit on how many G's the human body will stand and survive...I don't know how much, and it is probably a sliding scale. I think I can safely say the 35 Gs is not survivorable. If you hit something at 35 G's, the only thing the harnesses will do is keep your very dead body in the vinicity of the crash, so you are easy to find up by the cleanup crew. And it should take less containers to box you up for the morgue. Fighters can take a real hit, but again nothing survives. I was in an Army Helicopter when a F something was tracking to a VOR in Crossville Tennessee but was a couple of hundred feet below the VOR. He flew unto a cumulio granite clowd at about 600 Knotts. The aircraft looked like it had been put in a blender or puree.

SFI takes the standards, and makes sure they are followed. They collect a fee off of those "stickers" and that is what keeps them in business. You can use a belt set that meets SFI, but you have to through them away after 2 years. If the product is FIA approved then you can use them for 5 years.

IMHO Impact cheated, and falsified records, to save money. They need to be de-certified. Of course somebody could declare his business is to big to fail, and the Feds will feed them huge bags of money. Then Bill could give all the key people huge bonuses so they wont leave and take their experience with them, and make even better more counterfiet labels.

Bill Seifert
1999 Civic SI Race Car

gbaker

Drivers survive 35G+ impacts all the time. In fact, the average IRL crash is only 35Gs and easily ranges up to 70-80. 100G+ impacts have been recorded more than once.

The human body sustains fatal soft tissue damage within the thoracic (chest) cavity somewhere around 150Gs, with recent research suggesting the limit may be as high as 180Gs. At these loads the heart will tear from the aorta, or a fractured rib will pierce the heart or lung(s).

Now, if you are taking about a driver who has no head and neck restraint, the fatal limit is in the 25-30G range.

gbaker

SFI's tax return lists Fred Crow as Vice President (see page 7).

And if you go to Crow Enterprises Web site, on the about page you find someone named Fred Crow.

Huh. Nah...

TrackdayRSA.

Kyle Petty is dead?

Circuit Motorsports

I'm sure he meant Adam Petty, Kyles son.

Geo

Thanks Gregg. It really is a hoot and I have to say it's the most fun I've had racing. We're learning a lot and have the potential to be competitive, although anybody who goes into LeMons trying too hard to win will be caught in the BS judging and given penalty laps. They are really doing a lot to keep it fun and inexpensive.

Meanwhile, the 944 is waiting for me to commit to another direction (leaning heavily towards something else that will be a LOT of fun and keeping mum about it for now).

Geo

THAT is another of my beefs with SFI. It's an organization by and for the manufacturers. Don't kid yourself about any other purpose. As I said before, SFI is NOT an independent group like the Snell Memorial Foundation.

What this country needs (as long as it wants to have an alternative to FIA certs) is an independent group who does scientific research, sets standards based upon this science, AND independentyly tests products in the way Snell does (acquiring the products retail at random).

I am sure manufacturers and sanctioning bodies would prefer an independent body to SFI.

Bob Rouleau

What's the problem with FIA? My helmet is BSI (FIA) and my harness is Schroth (FIA). I dislike manufacturers setting standards if only because they have a major incentive to make us replace perfectly good equipment based on some arbitrary "best before" date. Where I live a harness in a race car has a useful life or a lot more than 2 years for example. Cars are garaged and or under covers except for 30 odd days at the track. I have never figured out why PCA lets me use a 20 year old seatbelt in a 911 but not a 3 year old SFI harness. Very odd no?