Please critique my Sebring lap.......thanks!....Update 6/14/10
03-02-2010, 12:13 AM
#1
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Please critique my Sebring lap.......thanks!....Update 6/14/10
I just started tracking my Cayman S last year. So far I have 5 track days under my belt. I'm running Blue Advanced Student @ PCA ( Green @ Chin). The Cayman is completely stock. Run with TC on PSM sport. I really liked my last instructor who showed me this line with fairly late apexes. He felt this was a safe line to begin with and I was very comfortable with the line. I remember reading here something to the affect of "you want to late apex as early as possible" which seems now to make sense. I showed this video to a friend and he mentioned I was too slow with turn in. Any thoughts re: turn in, line, speed, gear selection etc. would be appreciated. I know I blew the hairpin on this lap. I'm still trying to figure that out.....and 1 and 4 and 17 and........you get the idea. TIA
Last edited by p997s123; 06-14-2010 at 06:19 PM.
03-02-2010, 12:38 AM
#3
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going to have to disagree with your instructor, I think you need to be turning in earlier and with a little more speed.
Right off the bat, turn 1 turn-in seems to be right around the right spot, but I would use more steering input. You should be getting to the wall a little sooner...Knock the mirror off... turn 3 the turn-in seems about 15-20 feet too late. you can turn in much earlier than you think for 3, and you wont have to box the turn off as much. same thing for the carousel, turn in earlier and slower and make a smoother arc.
a little earlier at the hairpin and grab some of the inside rumbles. turn-in seems very good at 10, but you can carry quite a bit more speed through there and let the car track out further. we traditionally try to keep students from tracking out too far at 10, but you still have some room to spare before getting to the "too aggressive for DE" zone.
tower turn (13) looks good, cant really hear very well but you might be able to pick up the throttle a little bit sooner. I know you were behind someone in 15 so can't really see what you usually do at speed, but can turn in slightly sooner and grab more inside rumble there as well.
16 you were passing so cant really tell. 17 looks good as far as turn in, but you dont need to hug so tight in what some people refer to as the "second apex". once the speed picks up, you will be off the inside grass (after the bridge) and the speed will be carrying you all the way out to the outside wall.
Overall the lap looks good. You seem to be carrying good speed and your lines aren't that far off. Seat time is where its at. Keep logging laps.
Right off the bat, turn 1 turn-in seems to be right around the right spot, but I would use more steering input. You should be getting to the wall a little sooner...Knock the mirror off... turn 3 the turn-in seems about 15-20 feet too late. you can turn in much earlier than you think for 3, and you wont have to box the turn off as much. same thing for the carousel, turn in earlier and slower and make a smoother arc.
a little earlier at the hairpin and grab some of the inside rumbles. turn-in seems very good at 10, but you can carry quite a bit more speed through there and let the car track out further. we traditionally try to keep students from tracking out too far at 10, but you still have some room to spare before getting to the "too aggressive for DE" zone.
tower turn (13) looks good, cant really hear very well but you might be able to pick up the throttle a little bit sooner. I know you were behind someone in 15 so can't really see what you usually do at speed, but can turn in slightly sooner and grab more inside rumble there as well.
16 you were passing so cant really tell. 17 looks good as far as turn in, but you dont need to hug so tight in what some people refer to as the "second apex". once the speed picks up, you will be off the inside grass (after the bridge) and the speed will be carrying you all the way out to the outside wall.
Overall the lap looks good. You seem to be carrying good speed and your lines aren't that far off. Seat time is where its at. Keep logging laps.
03-02-2010, 01:15 AM
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Given that you're a blue student, I'm not going to be that harsh. However, understand that you're braking too early/coasting on almost every turn entry. As you're braking/coasting too early, you're not learning the proper application of braking. You can go deeper and braker harder everywhere. Again, you'll work up to this but that should be your goal. In general your line is OK. You missed an apex here and there but that will come.
At this point you need to push yourself to push harder... I don't know what your goals are in all of this and you may be comfortable with just being smooth and not really pushing things. However, you can go a lot faster in every corner without too much stress. Also, you need to learn to heel/toe the car when you're downshifting.
As a detailed example, take your entry to turn 1. You're coasting before the bridge. You should work up to being full throttle until after the bridge. Then, hit the brakes hard, down shift and slowly apply throttle gradually until you're at the apex (where you should then be full throttle) and then unwind the car fully. Look how much track you leave on corner exit....
Keep at it!
At this point you need to push yourself to push harder... I don't know what your goals are in all of this and you may be comfortable with just being smooth and not really pushing things. However, you can go a lot faster in every corner without too much stress. Also, you need to learn to heel/toe the car when you're downshifting.
As a detailed example, take your entry to turn 1. You're coasting before the bridge. You should work up to being full throttle until after the bridge. Then, hit the brakes hard, down shift and slowly apply throttle gradually until you're at the apex (where you should then be full throttle) and then unwind the car fully. Look how much track you leave on corner exit....
Keep at it!
03-02-2010, 04:42 AM
#7
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That's what I was thinking. As you are not having any issues with not heel / toeing this suggests you're going fairly 'comfortably'. In other words, if you're going a faster pace you can't 'not' match engine and gearbox revs without damaging car or spinning or upsetting balance at the very least. So it's a matter of building up to speed, but don't go out crazy next time. Maybe concentrate on a series of corners and do some basic timing along with pro instruction. Then you'll be able to measure quantifiable numbers/speed and give you something to push towards.
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03-02-2010, 09:30 AM
#8
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In short, you're turning in too early.
OK, as your instructor said, it's safer which, when you don't have a lot of experience, is a good thing but with track, your goal is to go faster so that is something you need to start doing.
Turning in is very common though, you see most of the DE drivers doing it (instructors included) and also majority of the Club Racers but as already said, it's the comfortable/safer way to go.
For example on Bishop Bend, you drive a long way straight (before the right hander), in principle you don't want to go straight in those type of situations because it means you're leaving something "on the table".
Same thing, as PedroNole already explained, you're braking too early and then coasting.
You're smooth which is good although once you add speed, it becomes more difficult. Little hard to see based on one time you passed but just in general, when you follow someone, don't follow them (keep driving your line even when the guy in front of you is much slower than you are).
17 has 273 different lines so don't worry if you're not "getting it"...
Keep going, Sebring is awesome isn't it!
12 hrs is coming real soon, tape it and watch the in-car camera shots, especially the GT cars when they don't have traffic around (not often...), you can see the fast line from that.
03-02-2010, 09:32 AM
#9
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First kudo's for having the nads to post and ask for feedback that shows a high level of maturity and willingness to get feedback, which by the way all the REALLY FAST GUYS are always looking/asking for.
One of the hardest things to do is not breathe off the gas you will need to make a plan to say OK I am going into T-1 and I am flat to the X-spot then BRAKE. Work sections of the track over time, try not to do it all at once. If you are all-in you may want to consider basic data like a trackmate which will show exactly what you are doing. Lots of deals on that kid of stuff now.
One safety bit, in T16 it seemed to me that you cranked and held the wheel to pass the other car OK at a relatively slow speed but as you build I would not get in that habit, the rear can snap and you do not have much wiggle room with the inside concrete barrier.
Nice job I tend to lurk at Sebring if you see me swing by and say hello. A night I usually have a BBQ and tunes going.
One of the hardest things to do is not breathe off the gas you will need to make a plan to say OK I am going into T-1 and I am flat to the X-spot then BRAKE. Work sections of the track over time, try not to do it all at once. If you are all-in you may want to consider basic data like a trackmate which will show exactly what you are doing. Lots of deals on that kid of stuff now.
One safety bit, in T16 it seemed to me that you cranked and held the wheel to pass the other car OK at a relatively slow speed but as you build I would not get in that habit, the rear can snap and you do not have much wiggle room with the inside concrete barrier.
Nice job I tend to lurk at Sebring if you see me swing by and say hello. A night I usually have a BBQ and tunes going.
03-02-2010, 12:43 PM
#10
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I have not driven Sebring so cannot comment on specific corners but, from what I can see, you need to track out much further on many of the corners -- use the entire width of the track.
Oh, and turn the radio off.
Marc
Oh, and turn the radio off.
Marc
03-02-2010, 03:31 PM
#11
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Aiptek GVS w/ clip on wide angle lens
I am heel/toeing on every downshift! I think the problem may be I am coasting and am soft on the brakes because I am now heel/toeing. This gives me time to try to rev match and brake at a more comfortable pace. I will work on my technique. Seems much more difficult for me to heel/toe and be HARD on the brakes at the same time. ( no wonder my brakes and tires are holding up so well
)
Great idea!
Thank you again to all who responded. I know I have a lot to learn but I am having a blast with the learning curve.
I'll be at Sebring (short course) with Suncoast PCA in March and with Chin in April. Come by and say hi if you happen to make it........I'm the only Green Cayman there!
)Thank you again to all who responded. I know I have a lot to learn but I am having a blast with the learning curve.
I'll be at Sebring (short course) with Suncoast PCA in March and with Chin in April. Come by and say hi if you happen to make it........I'm the only Green Cayman there!
Last edited by p997s123; 04-25-2010 at 09:28 PM.
03-02-2010, 04:09 PM
#13
Drifting
I am no Sebring expert...I drove Sebring for the first time 1 month ago at the club race. What a fun track!
You're very smooth. Your inputs seem calculated and assertive. You turn in too late at 3 and 7 and somewhat a little late at 10 and 13...especially considering the car you have. 17 is a bitch of a turn with many lines it seems, but i am certain of one thing - you are too far off the inside wall at entry. Personal preference... keep your hands in the same position on the steering wheel (don't shuffle the steering wheel in your hands).
Awesome image quality by the way.
You're very smooth. Your inputs seem calculated and assertive. You turn in too late at 3 and 7 and somewhat a little late at 10 and 13...especially considering the car you have. 17 is a bitch of a turn with many lines it seems, but i am certain of one thing - you are too far off the inside wall at entry. Personal preference... keep your hands in the same position on the steering wheel (don't shuffle the steering wheel in your hands).
Awesome image quality by the way.
Last edited by FredC; 03-02-2010 at 05:48 PM.
03-02-2010, 05:19 PM
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I am heel/toeing on every downshift! I think the problem may be I am coasting and am soft on the brakes because I am now heel/toeing. This gives me time to try to rev match and brake at a more comfortable pace. I will work on my technique. Seems much more difficult for me to heel/toe and be HARD on the brakes at the same time. ( no wonder my brakes and tires are holding up so well
)Do you roll your ankle or turn your foot?
03-02-2010, 05:47 PM
#15
Race Director
Yeah come on Jenk I know you know Sebring, I've tried to follow you! Hope to see you back at Sebring soon anyway.
P997S123....OK 1st nice video and actually nice safe driving for 5 times at Sebring. I saw your car at one of the last events.
You are smooth and calculated and I can tell from your driving your probably have a great and the perfect attitude for this. However I think for this year it's time to start going faster in the turns. Either you are on the throttle or braking...modulating throttle and braking..fast footwork...NO COASTING.
I agree with LD but I would have you turn into 1 just a tad eariler and get to that wall a little sooner. I can tell you have tons more speed left in 1 bcause you did not track out of 1.
Turn into 5 a little earlier. There is a white concrete and asphalt section and your right front tire needs to hit that spot. You were way to the right of that spot thus you were way wide of the turn 5 apex.
You coasted under the brideg into turn 7. Witha Cayman you should start braking under the bridge at the earlist. With race pads and r-comp tires you should be braking right at the 4 cones. This is a great turn to learn to threshold brake. Turn in point at 7 seems fine but you were way wide of the right side rumble strips. You should hit those strips and get the wheel straight as soon as possible and hit the left side strips comming out of 7.
Again brake later at 10. There is a little bump right before the brake zone into 10. Hit the bump then brake.
Good line through 11-12 nice steady hands with no correction...super nice job there. Nice line going into 13 too and good turn in and track out.
Good line through Bishops (14) then you caught the Mazda....always drive your correct line.
I see you are still on the super safe DE line into 17. There are many ways through 17 and it depends on you and your car.
Have fun, stay safe and pick up your speed when YOU feel comfortable! Nice job!
Hope to meet you at the Chin April event and then again in May.
P997S123....OK 1st nice video and actually nice safe driving for 5 times at Sebring. I saw your car at one of the last events.
You are smooth and calculated and I can tell from your driving your probably have a great and the perfect attitude for this. However I think for this year it's time to start going faster in the turns. Either you are on the throttle or braking...modulating throttle and braking..fast footwork...NO COASTING.
I agree with LD but I would have you turn into 1 just a tad eariler and get to that wall a little sooner. I can tell you have tons more speed left in 1 bcause you did not track out of 1.
Turn into 5 a little earlier. There is a white concrete and asphalt section and your right front tire needs to hit that spot. You were way to the right of that spot thus you were way wide of the turn 5 apex.
You coasted under the brideg into turn 7. Witha Cayman you should start braking under the bridge at the earlist. With race pads and r-comp tires you should be braking right at the 4 cones. This is a great turn to learn to threshold brake. Turn in point at 7 seems fine but you were way wide of the right side rumble strips. You should hit those strips and get the wheel straight as soon as possible and hit the left side strips comming out of 7.
Again brake later at 10. There is a little bump right before the brake zone into 10. Hit the bump then brake.
Good line through 11-12 nice steady hands with no correction...super nice job there. Nice line going into 13 too and good turn in and track out.
Good line through Bishops (14) then you caught the Mazda....always drive your correct line.
I see you are still on the super safe DE line into 17. There are many ways through 17 and it depends on you and your car.
Have fun, stay safe and pick up your speed when YOU feel comfortable! Nice job!
Hope to meet you at the Chin April event and then again in May.