What is the difference between shutting the door and a chop?........
09-02-2009, 12:41 PM
#46
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I agree with SG_M3, actually; IMO it seems like the white 914 was trying to leave only one car width on the inside, but maybe overestimated the width of his car. Didn't seem like the passing car even got up on the curb - could've and hung on... seems like you guys like a lot of real-estate out there on the track... need to try some narrower tracks where you often have to hang half a tire off the pavement to squeak by if the other guy's not cooperating...
For example... (real fun starts around 2:30, last lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4SjV-hUM7o
As was stated to my wife in her driver's school, in response to the question "How much room do I need to leave the other guy"? - "Enough room to fit his ***** between the cars."
For example... (real fun starts around 2:30, last lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4SjV-hUM7o
As was stated to my wife in her driver's school, in response to the question "How much room do I need to leave the other guy"? - "Enough room to fit his ***** between the cars."
09-02-2009, 12:47 PM
#47
Race Director
Shutting the Door = Preventing a move by the compeitor before move starts or talking it away beofore the move goes in too far. The key hear is the passing car will need to adjust their line and or speed to avoid contact, but adjustment is "minor"
Chopping = Stopping a move in occuring that results in the other driver needing to do a major change to line/speed to avoid contact. IE an evasive maneuver
So the difference comes down to how much adjustment the guy needs to make. If he needs to lock up the tires or hit the grass hard or basicly make an evasive maneuver to avoid contact you chopped him. The driver behind is usally pausing a moment in either code brown or needs to take breath. If you shut the door the driver behind may need to back out of their move, but it all happens in the flow of the race. A "shut the door" move can be predicted by the drive attempting the pass and therefore a good racer will have an "out" just incase the door get slammed on them. Now a racer may try stick their nose in just to see if the door will get slammed. If not they may gain a "free spot" if not they just tuck back in and try harder next time. On a chop it is much clear that the car being passed is pretty much saying. You are going to need to crash into me to pass me so back off fuc%er.
09-02-2009, 01:00 PM
#49
Race Director
The 914 chopped the 911. It was very clear to me. Why?
The 914 established the outside line and left the door open on the inside. The 911 took that and when the were side by side the 914 sliced right across the front of the 911. Shutting the door would have been to move over to prevent the 911 from coming along side. The simple fact is once the 911 pulled up along side the 914 was done and should have given the inside. The only chance to save position was to chop across the 911 and hope the 911 did not want be in a wreck. If the 911 guy cares about his car it might work. If not there was going to be contact.
Really the 914 should have just taken away the inside as they approached that corner. He should have seen the slower cars and go in to the corner defensive. Exit speed is not that important as goal should have been to get those slower cars between him and the 911. That would creat a gap. Instead he feel a sleep and gave the 911 a huge lane to drive through... All till he realized his mistake and decided to fight his position back.
The 914 established the outside line and left the door open on the inside. The 911 took that and when the were side by side the 914 sliced right across the front of the 911. Shutting the door would have been to move over to prevent the 911 from coming along side. The simple fact is once the 911 pulled up along side the 914 was done and should have given the inside. The only chance to save position was to chop across the 911 and hope the 911 did not want be in a wreck. If the 911 guy cares about his car it might work. If not there was going to be contact.
Really the 914 should have just taken away the inside as they approached that corner. He should have seen the slower cars and go in to the corner defensive. Exit speed is not that important as goal should have been to get those slower cars between him and the 911. That would creat a gap. Instead he feel a sleep and gave the 911 a huge lane to drive through... All till he realized his mistake and decided to fight his position back.
09-02-2009, 01:14 PM
#50
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Of course, the real fun stuff starts when you can tempt the leading car to shut the door, screwing up his line, resume your own and pass him out of the corner... but that's perhaps a technique best left for the advanced group.
09-02-2009, 01:16 PM
#51
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Keep in mind as well that the amount of room you need to leave in a 13/13 series is different from SCCA IT. I've raced all over the place...you adjust your style to the circumstances. Even in SCCA IT though, there's no way that you put an inside wheel off in that turn. Either you car will bottom on the curb or your inside wheel will hook on the outside of the curb and send you spinning or you'll bounce off the curb into the car to your outside. The 914 didn't leave room for both cars to navigate the turn once the 911 got alongside.
09-02-2009, 01:29 PM
#52
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I have driven that turn, but no, haven't watched your videos, and it's been a while since I've been there. I do understand the difference with 13/13 racing (which is why I don't bother with it)... but as I said, it looked to me like the 914 driver TRIED to leave enough room, but failed. If he was trying to chop - wouldn't he have gotten a LOT closer to the curb??
As for hooking the curb... well, actually, it's amazing how much lateral you can generate by hooking the right track edges... but that's definitely an advanced technique... I'll take your word for it regarding that specific curb... but I've been well over curbs that big to avoid contact and maintain position...
Woohoo!!!
http://www.waterfordhills.com/cms/e1...g2_itemId=7804
http://www.waterfordhills.com/cms/e1...g2_itemId=7815
As for hooking the curb... well, actually, it's amazing how much lateral you can generate by hooking the right track edges... but that's definitely an advanced technique...
I'll take your word for it regarding that specific curb... but I've been well over curbs that big to avoid contact and maintain position... Woohoo!!!
http://www.waterfordhills.com/cms/e1...g2_itemId=7804
http://www.waterfordhills.com/cms/e1...g2_itemId=7815
09-02-2009, 02:07 PM
#53
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Later when I confronted "the idiot" he just said "yeah I saw you...what did you expect me to do - just let you pass!!!!"
Needless to say I told him almost exactly what Larry mentioned above. I promise you I looked for him during the 2nd sprint!!!!!
09-02-2009, 02:09 PM
#54
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On a flat track or off-camber turn, you could probably drop a wheel over that curb without too much issue. On a camber positive turn, there's no way. The inside tire isn't unweighted the way it would be in a flatter turn.
09-02-2009, 02:28 PM
#55
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09-02-2009, 03:13 PM
#56
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Assuming that you mean that one is "worse" than the other, I guess I would define shutting the door as moving over and closing the passing lane before the other car is at all alongside...essentially a block. A chop would be moving over once the other car is at least somewhat alongside to the point that you force the other car to make an evasive maneuver to avoid contact.
If we're talking about racing with PCA, or otherwise under some draconian 13/13 rule, then this kind of stuff probably shouldn't be going on. But I don't race under a 13/13, so if the other car's front wheel isn't up to my door yet (or they couldn't keep it there), they have no right to be there and need to plan on me coming over. That said, I don't agree with the intent of actually trying to force them off the road... you want to get them to take evasive action and lose their momentum in the process, but you don't want to wreck them, and you don't want to be a reckless jackass. Now, if you give them reasonable time to take evasive action and they still wreck, then that's unfortunate but it's their fault. Another thing to remember is that if there is contact between the two cars, the one that did the chop move is probably going to lose that fight and end up spinning as a result of being hit in the inside rear.
09-02-2009, 04:01 PM
#57
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That said, I don't agree with the intent of actually trying to force them off the road... you want to get them to take evasive action and lose their momentum in the process, but you don't want to wreck them, and you don't want to be a reckless jackass. Now, if you give them reasonable time to take evasive action and they still wreck, then that's unfortunate but it's their fault. Another thing to remember is that if there is contact between the two cars, the one that did the chop move is probably going to lose that fight and end up spinning as a result of being hit in the inside rear.
Now again.. I define a chop as a move where I need to go farming or slam on my brakes hard to avoid slamming into you. I have have "evade" just keep the car dent free I consder it a dirty chop move.
Now when you "close the door" you just tell me "That space you thought you could take avantage of... nope not giving it up". So I will need to slow or move my line in some way, but I can so in such a way as still be racing rather hanging on for dear life.
Alot o this comes down to position and timing. If I see a gap at turn in you have left the door "open". If I am on your bumper looking to make the move and pull out and start my dive for it and then you "closed the opening" fine. You shut the door hard and may need to slow or move over to keep the racing clean. If I have commited to deep I maybe in big trouble, but when racing you need to consider "what if the guy slams the door on me" in every pass move.
In a chop I have seen the opening, I have gone for it and I am in there committed side by side. If then you decide cut across my line you are chopping. I would need to not just increase braking or move over a few inches to clear, but I will very rapidly need to to into survival mode. Getting out of the corner with any speed or trying to press a pass is then irrelevant since my only concern is making out safe and sound.
So doing a chop is very bad beause the guy being chopped has two options. 1) react and try to save the car 2) brace for impact. I see a chop as telling the other guy "the only way you will pass me is after the wreck" or "I am willing to wreck my car to keep you behind me, are you willing to wreck to pass me?"
Be it 13/13 or regular club racing it is still club racing. Gentleman racing and one driver intentional putting another in situation where they either most be a hero and actively avoid contact or wreck and risk injury is just stupid. I have raced many years and have the door shut on my many times. I have also been chopped a few times where 95% of the time it was unintentional. In fact there has been only once in over 100 races where I felt I was intentionaly put in a situation I had to strongly evade that other car or face a nasty wreck. I was NOT happy about it and my trust level with that driver will never be the same.
09-02-2009, 05:39 PM
#58
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Weston I don't feel a chop has ANY place in club racing. If you chop me I will be very pissed off. You may "get away" with it, but trust has been lost.
Now again.. I define a chop as a move where I need to go farming or slam on my brakes hard to avoid slamming into you. I have have "evade" just keep the car dent free I consder it a dirty chop move.
Now when you "close the door" you just tell me "That space you thought you could take avantage of... nope not giving it up". So I will need to slow or move my line in some way, but I can so in such a way as still be racing rather hanging on for dear life.
Alot o this comes down to position and timing. If I see a gap at turn in you have left the door "open". If I am on your bumper looking to make the move and pull out and start my dive for it and then you "closed the opening" fine. You shut the door hard and may need to slow or move over to keep the racing clean. If I have commited to deep I maybe in big trouble, but when racing you need to consider "what if the guy slams the door on me" in every pass move.
In a chop I have seen the opening, I have gone for it and I am in there committed side by side. If then you decide cut across my line you are chopping. I would need to not just increase braking or move over a few inches to clear, but I will very rapidly need to to into survival mode. Getting out of the corner with any speed or trying to press a pass is then irrelevant since my only concern is making out safe and sound.
So doing a chop is very bad beause the guy being chopped has two options. 1) react and try to save the car 2) brace for impact. I see a chop as telling the other guy "the only way you will pass me is after the wreck" or "I am willing to wreck my car to keep you behind me, are you willing to wreck to pass me?"
Be it 13/13 or regular club racing it is still club racing. Gentleman racing and one driver intentional putting another in situation where they either most be a hero and actively avoid contact or wreck and risk injury is just stupid. I have raced many years and have the door shut on my many times. I have also been chopped a few times where 95% of the time it was unintentional. In fact there has been only once in over 100 races where I felt I was intentionaly put in a situation I had to strongly evade that other car or face a nasty wreck. I was NOT happy about it and my trust level with that driver will never be the same.
Now again.. I define a chop as a move where I need to go farming or slam on my brakes hard to avoid slamming into you. I have have "evade" just keep the car dent free I consder it a dirty chop move.
Now when you "close the door" you just tell me "That space you thought you could take avantage of... nope not giving it up". So I will need to slow or move my line in some way, but I can so in such a way as still be racing rather hanging on for dear life.
Alot o this comes down to position and timing. If I see a gap at turn in you have left the door "open". If I am on your bumper looking to make the move and pull out and start my dive for it and then you "closed the opening" fine. You shut the door hard and may need to slow or move over to keep the racing clean. If I have commited to deep I maybe in big trouble, but when racing you need to consider "what if the guy slams the door on me" in every pass move.
In a chop I have seen the opening, I have gone for it and I am in there committed side by side. If then you decide cut across my line you are chopping. I would need to not just increase braking or move over a few inches to clear, but I will very rapidly need to to into survival mode. Getting out of the corner with any speed or trying to press a pass is then irrelevant since my only concern is making out safe and sound.
So doing a chop is very bad beause the guy being chopped has two options. 1) react and try to save the car 2) brace for impact. I see a chop as telling the other guy "the only way you will pass me is after the wreck" or "I am willing to wreck my car to keep you behind me, are you willing to wreck to pass me?"
Be it 13/13 or regular club racing it is still club racing. Gentleman racing and one driver intentional putting another in situation where they either most be a hero and actively avoid contact or wreck and risk injury is just stupid. I have raced many years and have the door shut on my many times. I have also been chopped a few times where 95% of the time it was unintentional. In fact there has been only once in over 100 races where I felt I was intentionaly put in a situation I had to strongly evade that other car or face a nasty wreck. I was NOT happy about it and my trust level with that driver will never be the same.
I agree that it's not gentleman racing to do the surprise chop move to put someone in a position where they are "hanging on for dear life", and I would not do that intentionally. However, you shouldn't expect someone to just give you room that you're not entitled to, and our Rocky Mountain cars wont. If you don't have the right to be there per the rules, then the other driver has every right to take his line and hit his apex, even if it conflicts with the one that you wanted to take and you have to avoid him. I know that upsets some people, especially guys who came from PCA 13/13, but that's the reality of racing.
You should never trust the other driver to just give it to you when you don't have the right-of-way, especially if it's a car that's racing in the same class as you. And remember, he doesn't have to give you room even if you are at his door... you're only entitled to 3/4 of a car width on the pavement at that point, unless there's a wall or other obstruction. Being forced to put 2 wheels in the dirt is perfectly acceptable, and expected, in many cases.
When I go to pass someone, I don't just boldly dive in there when he doesn't take the inside line... I'm either waiting until I have an opening where I'm confident that I can get up to his door in time, and/or I have an escape plan. Not many people in my region let me get away with a bluff move where I try to go side-by-side with them when I don't have the right to be there. If they call my bluff and come over on me, then I'll probably have to get on the brakes or go into the dirt to avoid contact... Assuming that no other variables are involved, that would be my doing and my responsibility to avoid contact, and then I lose speed and possibly position as a result of my failed pass. The responsibility lies with the driver who is attempting to make the pass.
09-02-2009, 05:42 PM
#59
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Taken from BMWCCA Club Racing website:
GCR 9.1.1: The Responsibility...rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware...and not to impede...The overtaken driver shall not block. Any driver who fails to make use of the rear view mirror, or who appears to be blocking…, may be black flagged and/or penalized.*
That’s it. All of it. The entirety of the “Rules of the Road” regarding drivers dealing with the presence of each other. Succinct, isn’t it? If not downright cryptic.
Actually its rather verbose compared to the usual bench racing pronouncement. “whoever has his nose in front has the corner”. One wonders why we would be interested in something so simplistic.
Such statements usually come at the end of a discussion of some racing incident, which in turn was likely caused when one or both drivers ignored the real rule of the road: Know where the other one is if at all possible and, whether it is or not, leave room for him or her to survive the moment.
Having your nose in front does not mean you own the corner. That other car is still present, is still racing, and has the right to enough space to exist. Just a car width plus a few inches, that’s all.
And, if you are in the other seat and that guy does not have his nose in front , it does not mean he or she doesn’t own the corner either. If you drive all the way to the apex and that car was far enough up or coming on so fast that contact can reasonably be expected to happen, you just violated the rule. He or she could even be fully behind you but be obviously committed to the inside at such a speed that you can no longer move into that path without being hit. You must be aware of the relative speed and car placements, then decide what you can or cannot do. It all comes down to judgment.
That is the core of racing, the very essence of it. If you demand or need the entire road to race, go Solo I instead. Wheel-to-wheel racing centers on dealing effectively with the presence of each other and still racing. You should be able to get or stay in front by superior skill &/or equipment, not by your willingness to commit mayhem.
Being a race car driver entails leaving that car width plus inches, then instantaneously picking and driving a racing line using the part of the road left to you.
It is everchanging and requires intense constant concentration while operating at the car’s limits within the situations. It has no hard, set rules like ”nose in front”. That’s as untenable as the “rules” of emergencies. (What do you do when a car spins in front of you)? How should I know? I’ve only had a few hundred of them. Simplistic souls say steer for it, hit the gas, scream “Oh S…”. What happens is, you take in endless bits of information, process it, make a decision, act, reevaluate, act again, and so on — all faster than onlookers can gasp and jump to their feet. That’s what makes race drivers. We do not react. We think, at speeds that seem to be reactions. We revel in that ability. And the volume of our thought processes in those moments explains why a brief incident can require so much description.
If you cannot do this, you are no race driver. That’s why being one is such a big deal. Who would care if anyone could do it?
And if you insist on disregarding the other guy, moving over knowing contact is likely, you are also not a race driver. You are a jerk. A fast jerk, possibly, but a jerk nonetheless. Any other story is b.s.
You are also somewhat shortsighted. Contact between cars tends to unsettle them, to make the moment ragged and uneven, and that has never been the description of how to go fast. It also causes damage to your car, damage that may end your race and that you yourself have to pay for. Why one would choose to cost himself unnecessary expense for the privilege of going slower escapes me.
Racing will give you plenty of opportunity for that without your assistance. Untimely mechanical foul-ups, human errors (your and others), and occasional bad luck will at times manage your charger. You don’t need to encourage that with an attitude that racing is sheer nerve and guts. It’s not. It IS concentration, attention, and skill —– skill that delights in showing the other guy that you can drive around him and still do it faster. That’s where our attitude shows.
- Mike Carney
That’s it. All of it. The entirety of the “Rules of the Road” regarding drivers dealing with the presence of each other. Succinct, isn’t it? If not downright cryptic.
Actually its rather verbose compared to the usual bench racing pronouncement. “whoever has his nose in front has the corner”. One wonders why we would be interested in something so simplistic.
Such statements usually come at the end of a discussion of some racing incident, which in turn was likely caused when one or both drivers ignored the real rule of the road: Know where the other one is if at all possible and, whether it is or not, leave room for him or her to survive the moment.
Having your nose in front does not mean you own the corner. That other car is still present, is still racing, and has the right to enough space to exist. Just a car width plus a few inches, that’s all.
And, if you are in the other seat and that guy does not have his nose in front , it does not mean he or she doesn’t own the corner either. If you drive all the way to the apex and that car was far enough up or coming on so fast that contact can reasonably be expected to happen, you just violated the rule. He or she could even be fully behind you but be obviously committed to the inside at such a speed that you can no longer move into that path without being hit. You must be aware of the relative speed and car placements, then decide what you can or cannot do. It all comes down to judgment.
That is the core of racing, the very essence of it. If you demand or need the entire road to race, go Solo I instead. Wheel-to-wheel racing centers on dealing effectively with the presence of each other and still racing. You should be able to get or stay in front by superior skill &/or equipment, not by your willingness to commit mayhem.
Being a race car driver entails leaving that car width plus inches, then instantaneously picking and driving a racing line using the part of the road left to you.
It is everchanging and requires intense constant concentration while operating at the car’s limits within the situations. It has no hard, set rules like ”nose in front”. That’s as untenable as the “rules” of emergencies. (What do you do when a car spins in front of you)? How should I know? I’ve only had a few hundred of them. Simplistic souls say steer for it, hit the gas, scream “Oh S…”. What happens is, you take in endless bits of information, process it, make a decision, act, reevaluate, act again, and so on — all faster than onlookers can gasp and jump to their feet. That’s what makes race drivers. We do not react. We think, at speeds that seem to be reactions. We revel in that ability. And the volume of our thought processes in those moments explains why a brief incident can require so much description.
If you cannot do this, you are no race driver. That’s why being one is such a big deal. Who would care if anyone could do it?
And if you insist on disregarding the other guy, moving over knowing contact is likely, you are also not a race driver. You are a jerk. A fast jerk, possibly, but a jerk nonetheless. Any other story is b.s.
You are also somewhat shortsighted. Contact between cars tends to unsettle them, to make the moment ragged and uneven, and that has never been the description of how to go fast. It also causes damage to your car, damage that may end your race and that you yourself have to pay for. Why one would choose to cost himself unnecessary expense for the privilege of going slower escapes me.
Racing will give you plenty of opportunity for that without your assistance. Untimely mechanical foul-ups, human errors (your and others), and occasional bad luck will at times manage your charger. You don’t need to encourage that with an attitude that racing is sheer nerve and guts. It’s not. It IS concentration, attention, and skill —– skill that delights in showing the other guy that you can drive around him and still do it faster. That’s where our attitude shows.
- Mike Carney
-Scott
