Time Trial drivers ...
09-02-2009, 11:49 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
This is a tough one... I say the answer is.... depends.
I think DE and TT are similar to one another, yet inherently different from racing from a statistical standpoint due to car-to-car proximity. I started doing DE in 1987 and PCA TT in 1994. There really is no difference if you are trying to improve, go faster and do the right things. I have never heard of a DE Sunday drive as Eric put it. Makes zero sense to me. Well, maybe parade laps, but there have been fatalities in parade laps too. Note that NASA and other TT running today is different from what we "grew up with" in the PCA GG Region.
Sure there may be some folks and organizations that aren't focused in the least bit on driver improvement and lap time lowering. But I think that these may be even less safe... so more safety stuff may be needed for them!
But even those lines get blurred when you factor in DE events with open passing. So things are just blurry from that standpoint.
Then you factor in speed. I have never bought arguments that that matters a lot. Slow car, fast car... sure forces go up with speed, but we aren't usually talking about really slow cars here.
Then you factor in level of effort. Sure you can drive a really capable car at 40% effort and get lapped by a 50 bhp 914, but is your risk any less?
Back when I started, I showed up and drove my 944 at LRP with just a helmet. Stock car in 1987. No AX, no karting, but yes I had a clue. The typical progression added harness bar and roll bar and later a cage... and proper seat (with holes, though in many cases still reclinable, like the Recaro SRD). The seat/harness bar combo held you in better for better control of the car... safety was in some sense a little secondary back then.
I cannot quite put my finger on it, but things are just different now. I think one needs to look at all of the variables for their own situation and as best as possible make a long term plan. And one key thing: always seek the advice and support of true professionals with real pedigrees. Few of them are on the internet. Get as informed as you can by people who know what they are doing. Here is an example:
A friend and fellow PCA instructor has a GT3 and does DE/TT. Has a reasonable seat and harness set up (DAS Sport stuff; designed and made by professionals). I run into him in a famous store, Wine Country Motrosports at Sears Point during a PCA DE/TT event. He is looking hard at a HANS device. I hear him talking with the young salesman. NEITHER are aware that the shoulder belts draped over Mr. HANS must have a certain geometry. I inform them, we go out to said GT3 with DAS, and the geometry will not be safe. Both thank me profusely.... how did I find out? The hard way... and then I got some help from HANS and from Joe Marko.
So my friend with the GT3/DAS has to make a change to his car to use a HANS. Now he can plan his path.
Now since I mentioned Eric, be aware that he does get advice and support from some real pros.... people who started racing in the 60's and have been there and done that. People that have seen famous drivers killed at Le Mans in the 70's and 80's. These people are not on the internet, generally speaking.
My advice: make an informed plan!
By the way, I picked my example re: HANS carefully, as it may have direct bearing on the poster's dilemma.
I think DE and TT are similar to one another, yet inherently different from racing from a statistical standpoint due to car-to-car proximity. I started doing DE in 1987 and PCA TT in 1994. There really is no difference if you are trying to improve, go faster and do the right things. I have never heard of a DE Sunday drive as Eric put it. Makes zero sense to me. Well, maybe parade laps, but there have been fatalities in parade laps too. Note that NASA and other TT running today is different from what we "grew up with" in the PCA GG Region.
Sure there may be some folks and organizations that aren't focused in the least bit on driver improvement and lap time lowering. But I think that these may be even less safe... so more safety stuff may be needed for them!
But even those lines get blurred when you factor in DE events with open passing. So things are just blurry from that standpoint.
Then you factor in speed. I have never bought arguments that that matters a lot. Slow car, fast car... sure forces go up with speed, but we aren't usually talking about really slow cars here.
Then you factor in level of effort. Sure you can drive a really capable car at 40% effort and get lapped by a 50 bhp 914, but is your risk any less?
Back when I started, I showed up and drove my 944 at LRP with just a helmet. Stock car in 1987. No AX, no karting, but yes I had a clue. The typical progression added harness bar and roll bar and later a cage... and proper seat (with holes, though in many cases still reclinable, like the Recaro SRD). The seat/harness bar combo held you in better for better control of the car... safety was in some sense a little secondary back then.
I cannot quite put my finger on it, but things are just different now. I think one needs to look at all of the variables for their own situation and as best as possible make a long term plan. And one key thing: always seek the advice and support of true professionals with real pedigrees. Few of them are on the internet. Get as informed as you can by people who know what they are doing. Here is an example:
A friend and fellow PCA instructor has a GT3 and does DE/TT. Has a reasonable seat and harness set up (DAS Sport stuff; designed and made by professionals). I run into him in a famous store, Wine Country Motrosports at Sears Point during a PCA DE/TT event. He is looking hard at a HANS device. I hear him talking with the young salesman. NEITHER are aware that the shoulder belts draped over Mr. HANS must have a certain geometry. I inform them, we go out to said GT3 with DAS, and the geometry will not be safe. Both thank me profusely.... how did I find out? The hard way... and then I got some help from HANS and from Joe Marko.
So my friend with the GT3/DAS has to make a change to his car to use a HANS. Now he can plan his path.
Now since I mentioned Eric, be aware that he does get advice and support from some real pros.... people who started racing in the 60's and have been there and done that. People that have seen famous drivers killed at Le Mans in the 70's and 80's. These people are not on the internet, generally speaking.
My advice: make an informed plan!
By the way, I picked my example re: HANS carefully, as it may have direct bearing on the poster's dilemma.
09-03-2009, 12:18 AM
#32
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As stated, TT is very different than DE ( at least in NASA).
DE is like high school, where you are always instructed and told what is expected.
NASA TT allows one to make their own choices, and revel or suffer the consequences. More like college.
TT is the bridge from HPDE to series racing.
A lot of folks in NASA actually do both, run TT and race.
And yes, though not mandated, NASA would love to see full safety in TT cars.
Having been in SCCA racing, A PCA /BMWCCA instructor, and currently competing in NASA i can tell you that the great thing about NASA is there isn't the discrimination between HPDE, TT, and racers.
Everyone is a driver, with like and shared interests, regardless of car, social class, etc..truly a grassroots organization, and inclusive.
The competition is ferocious, but not personal. No attitude. And much more affordable and affable than PCA / PCA Club Racing.
DE is like high school, where you are always instructed and told what is expected.
NASA TT allows one to make their own choices, and revel or suffer the consequences. More like college.
TT is the bridge from HPDE to series racing.
A lot of folks in NASA actually do both, run TT and race.
And yes, though not mandated, NASA would love to see full safety in TT cars.
Having been in SCCA racing, A PCA /BMWCCA instructor, and currently competing in NASA i can tell you that the great thing about NASA is there isn't the discrimination between HPDE, TT, and racers.
Everyone is a driver, with like and shared interests, regardless of car, social class, etc..truly a grassroots organization, and inclusive.
The competition is ferocious, but not personal. No attitude. And much more affordable and affable than PCA / PCA Club Racing.
09-03-2009, 12:26 AM
#33
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
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"that the shoulder belts draped over Mr. HANS must have a certain geometry. I inform them, we go out to said GT3 with DAS, and the geometry will not be safe. Both thank me profusely.... how did I find out? The hard way... and then I got some help from HANS and from Joe Marko.
"
mike you are right on. this is why all my roll bars and cages are custom made to ME. i sit in the seat in the car and have tony measure where my shoulder is then he makes the cross bar to me. when your torso is 2x longer than your legs......
"
mike you are right on. this is why all my roll bars and cages are custom made to ME. i sit in the seat in the car and have tony measure where my shoulder is then he makes the cross bar to me. when your torso is 2x longer than your legs......
09-03-2009, 09:21 AM
#34
Race Car
09-03-2009, 12:09 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
It all reminds me of a time I was on a test day with my race car in the early days, and I was wondering if I should bother by putting on the driving suit. I was chatting with a cornerworker at the time and he said something pretty relavant to the discussion and something that will stick with me forever. " Do you think fire knows if you are testing or in a race". Needless to say, I put on the racing suit. 
You never need any of the safety equipment until you need it. I remember our DE being really competitive, and there were just as many "battles" as some of my first races. in fact, with nasa, it was even more crazy. nascar, formula cars, open wheeler or not, superproduction and miatas, even those mini nascars powered by motorcycle engines. it was nuts out there! Time trial, in practices is probably more dangerous, as you have serous drivers with new drivers, all going as fast as they can with the full spectrum of performance levels. The speeds were near as fast and sometimes faster than the races. If you are cooking the brakes of a stock car, driven at 11/10s and they fail, you could end up like that 350Z. I think its up to the owner to understand the risks and put in the safety equip that matches his performance level. (both car and driver). I dont know how they can regulate and equate the safety of a stock miata vs a ZR1 in a time trial, but I dont know about you, but I dont want to be in a 800hp subaru with no rollbar or firesuit going 140mph on the track on street tires .
You never need any of the safety equipment until you need it. I remember our DE being really competitive, and there were just as many "battles" as some of my first races. in fact, with nasa, it was even more crazy. nascar, formula cars, open wheeler or not, superproduction and miatas, even those mini nascars powered by motorcycle engines. it was nuts out there! Time trial, in practices is probably more dangerous, as you have serous drivers with new drivers, all going as fast as they can with the full spectrum of performance levels. The speeds were near as fast and sometimes faster than the races. If you are cooking the brakes of a stock car, driven at 11/10s and they fail, you could end up like that 350Z. I think its up to the owner to understand the risks and put in the safety equip that matches his performance level. (both car and driver). I dont know how they can regulate and equate the safety of a stock miata vs a ZR1 in a time trial, but I dont know about you, but I dont want to be in a 800hp subaru with no rollbar or firesuit going 140mph on the track on street tires .
