where would my 3.4L 996 fit in SCCA club racing?
08-03-2009, 02:20 AM
#46
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exactly.
It seems like its GT3 no matter how you slice it. It think what mike is getting at, is that its a 996 with a engine that didnt come with the car. I dont think even in PRC, that would matter.
mk
It seems like its GT3 no matter how you slice it. It think what mike is getting at, is that its a 996 with a engine that didnt come with the car. I dont think even in PRC, that would matter.
mk
God knows why, but I feel compelled to try and clarify the PCA rules on a Sunday night after a fairly unremarkable bottle of cabernet.....
No matter what Carlos has done to his car he will never be a GTA car under PCA rules. That designation is reserved strictly for factory race cars, not highy modified production cars.
Carlos has a 99' 996 with a 3.4 motor which is the motor they came with in 99' to 01'. Yes he called it a "Boxster Motor" which is a term that refers to the type of motor not which car it came in. All water cooled 996 and 986 motors are "Boxster Motors". All GT3 motors, whether street or cup cars, are dry sump GT1 based motors....
So, his car model could run as a GTB car at 2750 lbs. if the rest of the car conformed to those specification which it does not. He can however, run in their GT classes based on motor size, type, and weight. Under those parameters, he would be a GT3(S or R) car. The water cooled 986 type motor (yes that's a 996 too)= a index of 135. So by their formula, 3.4 x 135 = 459. His weight of 2735/459 = 5.95 which is in the middle of the GT3 range (551-675).
As I read the PRC regs, he would therefore also be a PRC3 car per the PRC3 description on the bottom of page 6 of the 2009 PRC regulations.....
No matter what Carlos has done to his car he will never be a GTA car under PCA rules. That designation is reserved strictly for factory race cars, not highy modified production cars.
Carlos has a 99' 996 with a 3.4 motor which is the motor they came with in 99' to 01'. Yes he called it a "Boxster Motor" which is a term that refers to the type of motor not which car it came in. All water cooled 996 and 986 motors are "Boxster Motors". All GT3 motors, whether street or cup cars, are dry sump GT1 based motors....
So, his car model could run as a GTB car at 2750 lbs. if the rest of the car conformed to those specification which it does not. He can however, run in their GT classes based on motor size, type, and weight. Under those parameters, he would be a GT3(S or R) car. The water cooled 986 type motor (yes that's a 996 too)= a index of 135. So by their formula, 3.4 x 135 = 459. His weight of 2735/459 = 5.95 which is in the middle of the GT3 range (551-675).
As I read the PRC regs, he would therefore also be a PRC3 car per the PRC3 description on the bottom of page 6 of the 2009 PRC regulations.....
08-03-2009, 02:25 AM
#47
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Yep, it really doesnt matter much, as GT2 3 is totally unfair anyway. GT3 is very close to the top GT2 cars, based on HP to weight not needing to be the same for a lighter car to be as fast. I tried for years to help POC, but only made small progress. with PRC, there wasnt enough cars to really matter. With PCA, so many classes all based on displacements. However, they are making some improvements now. in the end, it woud be nice to class cars by HP to weight ratios (actual dyno results , or challengable results) and absolute weight. But, it will probably be years before this happens. 
in the end, you are right. it really doesnt matter. Have some fun, find a few cars to rally with and off you go!
MK
in the end, you are right. it really doesnt matter. Have some fun, find a few cars to rally with and off you go!
MK
I did not know that 996 and 986 cars had "986-based motors." I based my comments on this language from the PCA rules:
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
In any case, his car, as I understand it, would probably not be competitive with top-of-class GTA, GT3 or GT4 cars that have in the past 7 years run with PRC.
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
In any case, his car, as I understand it, would probably not be competitive with top-of-class GTA, GT3 or GT4 cars that have in the past 7 years run with PRC.
08-03-2009, 02:39 AM
#48
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You should run with us with SCCA. You would have a ball.
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
08-03-2009, 02:54 AM
#49
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my car, is a carrera 2 not a gt3. it has a engine that has a design that is based from the boxster. chris murry's car has the engine that comes from my car...his engine is from a carrera 2.
the 2009 rules state that 996 that are beyond stock or prepared without any engine mods go into GTB, yes... but my car is lighter than GTB specs and has engine mods so it is beyond GTB. since the new 2009 GT 1-4 rules include boxster BASED engines, ie. my engine, it is my interpretation that my car can be classed into GT3. following me?
PRC rules are quite vague and say nothing about water cooled boxster based engines so i will just place myself into PRC3. if it is not my engine that is the cause of your concern it is then the chassis. i can only guess that the belief is that the 996 chassis is far superior to all chassis and should be put into their own class.
if all you want is like minded people to race against then fine, just get rid of GT rules. if classing is not so important then why have them?
the PCA rules does not create perfect parity but what it does is make the playing field more fair.
the 2009 rules state that 996 that are beyond stock or prepared without any engine mods go into GTB, yes... but my car is lighter than GTB specs and has engine mods so it is beyond GTB. since the new 2009 GT 1-4 rules include boxster BASED engines, ie. my engine, it is my interpretation that my car can be classed into GT3. following me?
PRC rules are quite vague and say nothing about water cooled boxster based engines so i will just place myself into PRC3. if it is not my engine that is the cause of your concern it is then the chassis. i can only guess that the belief is that the 996 chassis is far superior to all chassis and should be put into their own class.
if all you want is like minded people to race against then fine, just get rid of GT rules. if classing is not so important then why have them?
the PCA rules does not create perfect parity but what it does is make the playing field more fair.
In the end the rules committee will decide, based on input/feedback. You have me confused. If your car is a 996 production car that has a modified 996 production engine, then in PCA it is GTA or GTB. Likely GTA. It would be in GTA with the PRC if it is in GTA or B with PCA.
Have you read the rules carefully? It doesn't matter what the design was based on, it matters what kind of car the engine came out of. Now if it is a hodgepodge of parts/one of, then you'd have to check with PCA on class and your PRC class would depend on that process.
Now if it has an engine from a 986 car, PCA has a special case in their GT classes. They have an index or performance for a 986 motor in any chassis. I am confused about how you have described your engine.
I don't think we need any more GT1-4 cars in specific groups. Nor 911 "Spec" or GTL for that matter. What I think we need/want is more like-minded drivers and well prepped Porsche racing cars so we can have more fun... this goes for the paddock culture as well.
At any given event there could be any number of cars in any of our classes. We don't control that in any way, nor manage it. Nor does PCA as far as I know. You have to be careful when considering how many cars of what type are showing up at which events. I think the most you can say about recent PRC events is that a fair number of 911 "Spec" are typically showing up. Likely the highest average if you do math on the data. GT2 and GT3 ebb and flow, and GT1 and GT4 would likely be tails on the Gaussian. We aren't trying to achieve a specific curve shape.
There is no parity in racing as far as I know. What has been proposed does not create parity.
Have you read the rules carefully? It doesn't matter what the design was based on, it matters what kind of car the engine came out of. Now if it is a hodgepodge of parts/one of, then you'd have to check with PCA on class and your PRC class would depend on that process.
Now if it has an engine from a 986 car, PCA has a special case in their GT classes. They have an index or performance for a 986 motor in any chassis. I am confused about how you have described your engine.
I don't think we need any more GT1-4 cars in specific groups. Nor 911 "Spec" or GTL for that matter. What I think we need/want is more like-minded drivers and well prepped Porsche racing cars so we can have more fun... this goes for the paddock culture as well.
At any given event there could be any number of cars in any of our classes. We don't control that in any way, nor manage it. Nor does PCA as far as I know. You have to be careful when considering how many cars of what type are showing up at which events. I think the most you can say about recent PRC events is that a fair number of 911 "Spec" are typically showing up. Likely the highest average if you do math on the data. GT2 and GT3 ebb and flow, and GT1 and GT4 would likely be tails on the Gaussian. We aren't trying to achieve a specific curve shape.
There is no parity in racing as far as I know. What has been proposed does not create parity.
08-03-2009, 03:02 AM
#50
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quick question. I know the first motor in 996 was the 3.4 , is this the engine in the car now? did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine. in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3. Ill have to review the rules, as I havent looked in quite a while. PCA does do a better job, finally in classing as you say, but PCA rarely comes to town, except for POC/PCA events down at Cal Speedway.
mk
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine. in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3. Ill have to review the rules, as I havent looked in quite a while. PCA does do a better job, finally in classing as you say, but PCA rarely comes to town, except for POC/PCA events down at Cal Speedway.
mk
my car, is a carrera 2 not a gt3. it has a engine that has a design that is based from the boxster. chris murry's car has the engine that comes from my car...his engine is from a carrera 2.
the 2009 rules state that 996 that are beyond stock or prepared without any engine mods go into GTB, yes... but my car is lighter than GTB specs and has engine mods so it is beyond GTB. since the new 2009 GT 1-4 rules include boxster BASED engines, ie. my engine, it is my interpretation that my car can be classed into GT3. following me?
PRC rules are quite vague and say nothing about water cooled boxster based engines so i will just place myself into PRC3. if it is not my engine that is the cause of your concern it is then the chassis. i can only guess that the belief is that the 996 chassis is far superior to all chassis and should be put into their own class.
if all you want is like minded people to race against then fine, just get rid of GT rules. if classing is not so important then why have them?
the PCA rules does not create perfect parity but what it does is make the playing field more fair.
the 2009 rules state that 996 that are beyond stock or prepared without any engine mods go into GTB, yes... but my car is lighter than GTB specs and has engine mods so it is beyond GTB. since the new 2009 GT 1-4 rules include boxster BASED engines, ie. my engine, it is my interpretation that my car can be classed into GT3. following me?
PRC rules are quite vague and say nothing about water cooled boxster based engines so i will just place myself into PRC3. if it is not my engine that is the cause of your concern it is then the chassis. i can only guess that the belief is that the 996 chassis is far superior to all chassis and should be put into their own class.
if all you want is like minded people to race against then fine, just get rid of GT rules. if classing is not so important then why have them?
the PCA rules does not create perfect parity but what it does is make the playing field more fair.
08-03-2009, 03:05 AM
#51
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sorry not me... i wish 
John, thank you very much for explaining it with the clarity i lacked.
God knows why, but I feel compelled to try and clarify the PCA rules on a Sunday night after a fairly unremarkable bottle of cabernet.....
No matter what Carlos has done to his car he will never be a GTA car under PCA rules. That designation is reserved strictly for factory race cars, not highy modified production cars.
Carlos has a 99' 996 with a 3.4 motor which is the motor they came with in 99' to 01'. Yes he called it a "Boxster Motor" which is a term that refers to the type of motor not which car it came in. All water cooled 996 and 986 motors are "Boxster Motors". All GT3 motors, whether street or cup cars, are dry sump GT1 based motors....
So, his car model could run as a GTB car at 2750 lbs. if the rest of the car conformed to those specification which it does not. He can however, run in their GT classes based on motor size, type, and weight. Under those parameters, he would be a GT3(S or R) car. The water cooled 986 type motor (yes that's a 996 too)= a index of 135. So by their formula, 3.4 x 135 = 459. His weight of 2735/459 = 5.95 which is in the middle of the GT3 range (551-675).
As I read the PRC regs, he would therefore also be a PRC3 car per the PRC3 description on the bottom of page 6 of the 2009 PRC regulations.....
No matter what Carlos has done to his car he will never be a GTA car under PCA rules. That designation is reserved strictly for factory race cars, not highy modified production cars.
Carlos has a 99' 996 with a 3.4 motor which is the motor they came with in 99' to 01'. Yes he called it a "Boxster Motor" which is a term that refers to the type of motor not which car it came in. All water cooled 996 and 986 motors are "Boxster Motors". All GT3 motors, whether street or cup cars, are dry sump GT1 based motors....
So, his car model could run as a GTB car at 2750 lbs. if the rest of the car conformed to those specification which it does not. He can however, run in their GT classes based on motor size, type, and weight. Under those parameters, he would be a GT3(S or R) car. The water cooled 986 type motor (yes that's a 996 too)= a index of 135. So by their formula, 3.4 x 135 = 459. His weight of 2735/459 = 5.95 which is in the middle of the GT3 range (551-675).
As I read the PRC regs, he would therefore also be a PRC3 car per the PRC3 description on the bottom of page 6 of the 2009 PRC regulations.....
Last edited by karlooz; 08-03-2009 at 12:44 PM.
08-03-2009, 03:11 AM
#52
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I did not know that 996 and 986 cars had "986-based motors." I based my comments on this language from the PCA rules:
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
In any case, his car, as I understand it, would probably not be competitive with top-of-class GTA, GT3 or GT4 cars that have in the past 7 years run with PRC.
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
In any case, his car, as I understand it, would probably not be competitive with top-of-class GTA, GT3 or GT4 cars that have in the past 7 years run with PRC.
first off, like JR said there's no way my car would be classed in GTA.
just by going with mylaps, my car could be in the top third. not a winning car but up there....but maybe if PCA rules are adopted then those front running GT3 cars will either have to go to GT2 or ballast up to stay in GT3. those 2200 lbs PRC3 lightweights will have to get heavier. can they sustain those low lap times? maybe just maybe, this is the reason for resistance.
08-03-2009, 03:20 AM
#53
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you have broken the code!
first off, like JR said there's no way my car would be classed in GTA.
just by going with mylaps, my car could be in the top third. not a winning car but up there....but maybe if PCA rules are adopted then those front running GT3 cars will either have to go to GT2 or ballast up to stay in GT3. those 2200 lbs PRC3 lightweights will have to get heavier. can they sustain those low lap times? maybe just maybe, this is the reason for resistance.
just by going with mylaps, my car could be in the top third. not a winning car but up there....but maybe if PCA rules are adopted then those front running GT3 cars will either have to go to GT2 or ballast up to stay in GT3. those 2200 lbs PRC3 lightweights will have to get heavier. can they sustain those low lap times? maybe just maybe, this is the reason for resistance.
08-03-2009, 03:23 AM
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quick question. I know the first motor in 996 was the 3.4 , is this the engine in the car now? did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine. in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3. Ill have to review the rules, as I havent looked in quite a while. PCA does do a better job, finally in classing as you say, but PCA rarely comes to town, except for POC/PCA events down at Cal Speedway.
mk
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine. in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3. Ill have to review the rules, as I havent looked in quite a while. PCA does do a better job, finally in classing as you say, but PCA rarely comes to town, except for POC/PCA events down at Cal Speedway.
mk
08-03-2009, 03:27 AM
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talking about unfair, ITE is the worst, LOL. it would be a lot of fun though just to kick it around.
yes, doing the NCRC race in august.
i can see my car being competitive in PCA GT3 with a few more tweaks. i gotta work on the noggin first.
yes, doing the NCRC race in august.
i can see my car being competitive in PCA GT3 with a few more tweaks. i gotta work on the noggin first.
You should run with us with SCCA. You would have a ball.
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
08-03-2009, 11:25 AM
#56
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it appears that many do not understand p car after 993's demise.
carlo's motor CAME WITH THE CAR from the factory as is.
there are TWO types of motors in post 99 cars (other than cayenne V8).
1. GT1 block, dry sump. this is just like the air/oil cooled split case block
2. ANY other engine that's not GT1 based/dry sump are called boxster motors b/c it was first introduced in boxster in 1997. it does NOT mean it's a boxster motor.
and in fact, boxster and carerra have the same engine differe only in displacement and some very small variations.
08-03-2009, 11:27 AM
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when he gets his 996 spec running. who knows. i be in 996spec. haha
too bad, you dont like spec. else we can have you, me and potter.
potter only allowed to fire on 4 cylinders.
08-03-2009, 11:31 AM
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You should run with us with SCCA. You would have a ball.
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
sign up and get into our race for the september double regional race in sept.
are you going to the NCRC race at the end of aug?
The way PRC has been going, the PRC spec 911 class is getting faster. 2:01.xx. the next classes are GT3 and GT4 and they are so light, that they will be faster, and you end up racing with guys that dont know the track that well with GT2 hardware or Cup cars. You, like me with the 928, are in no-man's land with PCA and PRC. POC, has all the fancy algorithms to even out the class with mods and weight, as well as wheel sizes, etc. But, its mostly in LA.
Hopefully, GTS will grow and we can run that class with some healthy numbers in each class. Until that happens, if you want some awesome racing experience. run with us.
mk
PRC are dominated by earlier cars.
and they seem to have some contradictory rules vs. PCA.
HOWEVER, they are willing to listen, maybe mike and carlos have coffee together to hash it out. they were VERY accommodation when my LONE BSR showed up and had a blast chasing spec 911's. side by side through the esses at infineon, what else can be better.
08-03-2009, 11:35 AM
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. I know the first motor in 996 was the 3.4 , is this the engine in the car now?
==> yes
did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
==> boxster had 2.5 up to 99, 2.7 up to now, boxster s was 3.2 and now 3.4
ALL the boxster and carerra motors m 96 and 97 are very similar sort of like 3.0 air cooled vs 3.2 air cooled.
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine.
==> his car is STOCK engine. old ****ing motor at 120k miles... it's a tired motor
in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3.
==> that's how i read it as well
==> yes
did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
==> boxster had 2.5 up to 99, 2.7 up to now, boxster s was 3.2 and now 3.4
ALL the boxster and carerra motors m 96 and 97 are very similar sort of like 3.0 air cooled vs 3.2 air cooled.
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine.
==> his car is STOCK engine. old ****ing motor at 120k miles... it's a tired motor
in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3.
==> that's how i read it as well
08-03-2009, 11:52 AM
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psssst, mooty. engine internals are stock but i got a load of bolt on mods
. I know the first motor in 996 was the 3.4 , is this the engine in the car now?
==> yes
did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
==> boxster had 2.5 up to 99, 2.7 up to now, boxster s was 3.2 and now 3.4
ALL the boxster and carerra motors m 96 and 97 are very similar sort of like 3.0 air cooled vs 3.2 air cooled.
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine.
==> his car is STOCK engine. old ****ing motor at 120k miles... it's a tired motor
in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3.
==> that's how i read it as well
==> yes
did the boxter use this motor when the 996 went to the 3.6?
==> boxster had 2.5 up to 99, 2.7 up to now, boxster s was 3.2 and now 3.4
ALL the boxster and carerra motors m 96 and 97 are very similar sort of like 3.0 air cooled vs 3.2 air cooled.
I think the confustion is coming from the question of whether or not you have the stock engine.
==> his car is STOCK engine. old ****ing motor at 120k miles... it's a tired motor
in PRC rules, any 996 that is not a GT3 cup, is classed based on displaement, right, so I think you would be GT3.
==> that's how i read it as well
