I signed up with a well known pro. coach...........
 

for 1/2 day in August......for the first time ever......

The way I see it If he can't help me majorly improve my times and driving skills, I might as well hang it up.........

For those of you that have hired pro. coaches what should I expect?

Should I have my agenda with goals to work on, or does a coach usually have
a standardized way to evaluating the student's driving skills and build from there?

Thanks for any insights......

Mine usually throws up shortly after we finish a session.

Seriously though I think there are multiple ways to approach it. You could go in and ask the coach to observe for a session, and then pick out what he feels you should be working on, you could try to evaluate where you think need the most work, and ask to work on that in particular, or you could mention what you feel needs work the most, have the coach observe, and then make a decision together. Personally, since this will be the first time you've worked with this coach, I'd be inclined to let him decide what is best for you to work on.

Ask the coach. Will he ride with you? You don't have data, does he know that? Is it a he?
:D

Ghettoracer?!

The good coaches will have a pre event form that will ask questions that should help formulate your plan for the half day, it will/should be the beginning of a dialog between the two of you to get the most out of the day.

Name please.

I would expect a pro coach to observe your driving prior to offering help. I guess your data for that track would be a good starting point unless, as Gary says, you don't have any.

Congrats. I hope you learn things that work on all tracks.

OK, first of all I do have a Traqmate complete system with a chasecam set up,
(and an Aiptek HD camera as back up) I know it is not the fancy AIM system you so much "love", but.........:)

Second of all, I want him to drive my car with the DAS on to later analyze and compare to my data and also I want him to evaluate and criticize my car set-up........

Thirdly, I want him to ride with me and criticize my driving skills and make suggestions on how to correct my bad habits.....

In short, I am trying to maximize my session with a famous pro. coach......

Do you think that is too much to ask for a 1/2 day session?:corn:

I will have data for that track before our session, and yes, I am hoping he will help me drive much better on any track.....

As far as who he is I don't know if I should advertise but...... let's just say he is a big fish in the racing community......:thumbup:

why would you not share his name? afraid he will pass secrets to others besides you :)

The question is what to expect from a pro. coach, not to discuss his fame or abilities......;)

hey buddy, really interested to see how this goes and your feedback! PM me who it is ;)

I know what I would expect from Danica, but that's about it....

It's okay Paolo, you can let people know that I'll be helping you.

You? You will be busy going to welding classes!!

Paolo,

1/2 a day may accomplish a lot, but likely it will be work in progress. What I found is you need time to digest input changes and " self-teach" instructions after a session then get back in with your coach to see what stuck. DAS will help if you have two days to review at the end of the day, then start fresh next day. Car setup can take at least a day. I am sure you will get good feedback.

Sean and Gary, that is one of the reasons I hang with you guys.......
......you crack me up........:roflmao:

Dan, I will let you know how it goes, hope to see you at a track soon.....

I know that you were looking for opinions from those who have actually hired a coach and will preface this by saying that I have not ever hired a professional coach.

However, you mentioned that you would have data. So, I would want is the coach to drive my car for the purposes of comparing my data to the coach's data. Then, i would like him or her to show me how I could improve beginning in the areas of the biggest differences. I would also be looking for tips in racecraft such as how to spot and exploit your competition's weaknesses to set up a pass, how to drive a wide line, how to pass a driver driving a wide line, how to use other cars as picks, etc. I think that anything you learn above what you already know will serve you well. Good luck to you.

All we want is to vicariously live through you for a moment. Who is the coach?

Bob, I am starting with a 1/2 day session (open track for 3.5 - 4 continuos hrs.) then I am hoping he will be willing to work with me again in the future......

Thanks for your input......BTW, will I see you at the T-bolt CR?

Sure Fred, bust my chops........

plus, I thought you specifically told me not to mention your name........:D

Joking aside, I have signed up with him because if he can't help me.....nobody can........ he was a referral from Mike I.;)

MKD good points, thanks......

Good choice. This will be an awesome experience I am sure. :burnout::burnout::burnout:

What, has he worked with retards in the past?? Jokes aside Paolo, most pros can do wonders with pretty much any car. It won't take long for him to pinpoint your flaws and will work them out. From what I herd, half a day or a full day split between two drivers is plenty and drag their feet at the end of the day.

Good luck and keep us informed on your experience.

Shemale. ;)

In all seriousness, Paolo, IMO a half day is not enough, for several reasons. That said, IMO run video in addition to data. Finally, I believe YOU should have a clear goal(s) for this session, and have the coach develop a specific agenda for each session you are on track, with easy to measure and realistically attainable goals for each session. And by clear goals, I don't mean simply lower lap times. that is IMO a cop out, because in a 1/2 day session, you will be attempting to boil the ocean.....and you won't succeed. Pick goals like "develop more comfort getting to power sooner" or "carry more entry speed & use less brake" or "I wear little girl panties in T1 and the Bus Stop" or "I need better race craft".

Just my 2 lire worth....





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Paolo - I have used a pro coach and my experience has been:

First, get to know the coach and more importantly let the coach get to know YOU...without any inhibitions or pretenses.

Next, the coach more than likely will observe your driving and offer a suggestive work plan. He may initially work on a few mechanical/technique changes but it will all be part of a bigger picture plan.

The foregoing may take up an entire day.

Next is follow-up sessions and preferably at different tracks. Some days you will do better, some days you'll regress. If your coach is like mine, then (beyond the basic mechanics of driving) a lot of his work is going to be working on the mental side of things. Pushing you where you may be timid, and reigning you in where you may be running outta talent.

In my limited judgement, working with a coach is a process...perhaps spanning an entire season or more...not just a one or a 1/2 day event.

Go for it and good luck!

Most important take-away in this entire thread.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

:roflmao::roflmao:
Thanks buddy....... I will keep everyone informed of my experience......

Best wishes for you and your familyl.........:bigbye:

Dave and Bobby, thanks for your inputs......

I am starting with 1/2 day to see how we do together, hoping to continue our relationship as I master
what I am taught in preceding session.....

I am sure it is going to be a long process....... but hey.....

Rome was not built in one day............:D

In my experience we don't work so much on confidence or skill set. We more work on car setup and line changes. Most of the time it goes him running data laps, me running data laps, then we make changes to the car, and then see where i'm losing/gaining. Working together has really changed my style of driving, trying to unlearn a lot of HPDE taught things. Fast in, balance/rotate mid corner, fast out, working on platform control and balance. Where I used to be a more traditional slow in/fast out driver. One of the biggest things was spending a day in his car(mx-5 cup) which really opened my eyes as to the things he was talking about(balance of platform), where WOT early and a lot isn't always faster. We were friends before him coaching me, which really helped us click and work well together.

Paolo, make sure you get the car set up correctly before your session. The half day will be great start and give you enough to work on. don't expect result immediatly. It is a work in process. It took me almost a year to get rid of my bad habits and continuing to build on the development of good habits, muscle memory. Great move on your part being pro-active to improve. Best of luck. I'm sure you'll let us know how you do!!!

I disagree on this part. As SGM3 said, the coach might have suggestions as to set up changes that might compliment the changes he/she suggests to Paolo's driving.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Oh crap... you listened to Mike!!!!! Last time I did that my wife ended up in a jacuzzi smelling like Tequila!!!!!

Seems to me one of the biggest subjective issues would be car setup. I would think that you will feel more comfortable with more understeer than him (as a generalisation). Still, he should be able to ascertain your standard and help develop the right setup for you I guess.
Sounds like a good thing and always nice to get some outside expert viewpoints and tuition.

...

To me it would be a waste of time and money to show up with a car that is not at least decently neutrally set up, a proper platform for a pro to work with. Not sure Paolo's car is there yet. But I have to qualify my post...I am not writing from experience.

Paolo: 115 Hurley, Oxford CT asap.

Why not just ask the Pro Coach you hired?

I think he should only bring the car as he normally races it, nothing more or less. Build from there. The car's EXISTING set up may be already affecting his driving, better or worse.

Kurt, agreed: this is the point I made on a previous page, I think.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

I see what you mean. But if Paolo's existing set-up is really crap, then he won't get all he could get out of the pro coach. Won't they be spending too much time discussing set-up issues that should not have beenv part of the discussion in the first place? It is difficult for me to see it differently, but again, I have never really coached or ever been coached at all.

Agreed.

I went to co-drove a car at mid-ohio, when I got in it I found it understeered pretty badly. But the owner didn't think so, he had learned to drive around it. While he was very quick with it, it would be ultimately faster if he changed the setup and unlearned to bad habits he had been using to make the car turn. I'm no pro, but someone people get used to a certain feel and never make a change because thats all they know.

Yup, and then all their attempts at getting faster are ultimately prevented by a very handicapped set up that may not be apparent to the driver.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Sounds like you are going to the kojote motorsport advanced driver event in august with 1/2 day coaching available. Also sounds like you dont want to ID the coach so I wont here.
I can, however, tell you that I have done it and you will not be dissapointed. In fact i am signed up with him for the July WGI event for a half day! You would need to spend a week straight in the car to learn what this guy knows.

Circuit is on the money, he will take as much time as possible to discuss your driving level, experience, what you want out of the day and pick very specific things to work on even before you go out on track. After a few laps with no teaching, you will come in and make sure the plan for the day matches what he thinks you need work on. Once you have this decided you go back out and focus again on one or two things with constructive instruction, come back in rinse/repeat. . .for 3.5 hours! He may also take the wheel for laps at a slower speeds for a personalized track lap with instruction specifically for your needs.

Depending on how quickly you master things, you can apply this process for as many focus areas as will fit in the 1/2 day. He will also be happy to talk about set up, engine etc since he really knows SO much. He is incredibly helpful and never rushes and always makes sure you understand what he is saying.
Ok - is this a good enough review?!

There is a reason he is a champion. . . enjoy!

Yeah, it's not like it's not on their site. :rolleyes: And yes, he will be worth it IMO.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Kojote = David Murray, no?

Your coach will do a great job. He is one of the best in the business and will definitely help you go faster. Remember to be a sponge while you are around him. If you remember half of what he talks about you will be 10x smarter on the track.

Back to the point of you guys talking about what to expect from hiring a driver coach for the weekend. I always talk to my clients before hand about what they are wanting to get out of me for the weekend. Their goals are always what is the most important. If they don't get out of it what they are expecting then it never works and they will not get faster. So I start off with sending them a questionnaire by email or discussing with them on the phone what they want to work. It is important that I find out what they consider their weaknesses/strong points and form my plan around that. Next is to let them know there is data available as I always use a Traqmate with my clients. I explain to them how this helps us out by me riding with them on the track, coaching them from the right seat, and then going over to the data to back up what we talked about on the track. After the weekend they always get a synopsis of the weekend. This is a sheet they can look back on to remember how we improved or points made while together to help them go faster when I am not around. All of this but mainly communication, IMHO, is what adds up to helping get the most out of the coaching experience.

As for the car setup on DMD's car I would suggest having a decent setup on it. This is not the most important thing for the track weekend but it will help to get the most out of it. With his day with the Pro being so short it is important that the coach is not distracted by mechanical problems or a difficult handling racecar. The easier to drive the better. If the car is such a handful that the driver is paying more attention to how to control the car than what the coach is saying during the ride then it is hard for the driver to learn. Make it as easy on yourself as you possibly can.

Remember it is all about having fun and learning. Keep it simple and you will come away amazed at how much you have improved in such a short period of time.

As BobbyC states, I think gaining more confidence is one of the key elements to getting faster. A good coach will push you and help you do things that you didn’t think were possible.

As has already been stated, getting help from a coach is a work-in-progress. At our levels, many of us may be tracking a less-than-ideal car. Although having a perfectly set-up car that is ready for a coach to do his magic is the desired scenario, if your car is not set up by someone who is good at reading a car and making changes, then a coach can help put you in the right direction. It is part of the inevitable process to, hopefully, getting faster. I agree that it is not 100% ideal, but it is a start.

I’m going to sound like a broken record to many here, but this is exactly what Chris Cervelli did for a few of us here a couple of years ago. He drove my car and made some very worthwhile suggestions to the car’s chassis and remote reservoir system that made a big difference in my confidence in the car, as well as confidence in myself. Additionally, he taught a few key driving approaches that, along with the chassis help, transformed the way I drove the car, resulting in lower lap times. All of this occurred over a day and a half for me, so I really tried to make the most of my distilled experience.

Absolutely. Nothing worse than wasting money on a coach for him/her to tell you that your car needs more camber, that it understeers too much, when you already know it... Especially not when considering who you chose to coach you. This guy has a lot more to offer than advice about obvious car set up issues. PAOLO: send your car to DJ before putting money towards coaching.... I think it is fair to say that he knows how to read the 78-89 platform (all 911 platforms for that matter).

I can see Seth's and Fred's point. However, the only concern I have with this, for only a 1/2 day session, is this: if getting a different set up right before the coaching changes the car a bunch, Paolo (or anyone) will spend more time & brain power learning how the car now drives than he should, and that 1/2 day of coaching will be somewhat less valuable, irrespective of what the coach says.

Like Seth, I "interview" the client first, establish clear, atttainable goals, and then recap how we have or have not done against those metrics throughout the day(s) as well as at the end.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

This is why I stated on mine was to have a decent setup car. I am not saying make drastic changes to the car so the driver has to relearn how to drive it. The car also doesn't have to be perfectly setup either. It needs to be setup the way you think is easy to drive. This will take your mind off what the car is doing and more on the coaching. Keep it simple.

Then we are all saying the same thing. It is just that i believe that Paolo's car may not be set-up at an acceptable level today.

Paolo - Half a day is a rather short time to accomplish the agenda you posted. Suggest you keep a very open mind and reasonable expectations. From the start on RL you have shown a lack of patience, remember the how long to go from Green to Black thread you initiated? IMO the goals you've established for a half day session are rather ambitious. You will benefit from the coaching, no doubt. Just relax and learn. Forget preconceived notions of what you define as "success" for your 3 hours or so:D.

For the others, unless something has changed, Paolo's car belonged to Ron Savenor - and he was a consistent winner with it. I know that Paolo switched to street tires (a good idea) when he began driving it. I don't know if the setup was changed but as delivered the car was well sorted.

Best,

Coaching is not about how the car is set up/it's how your brain and driving are set up

Make sure they throw in a t-shirt that states

" I am a Proffesional"
(coached student)

BTW Paolo, I cannot do the PCA CR, but will likely make the NASA T-bolt event. Track race budget this year is only 2 races following major car expenses. :(

I am really looking forward to my session with David.......

I appreciate your help and I will keep you posted how it turns out........:bigbye:

I've had a few 1/2 hour sessions with David. He's excellent. Let him drive your car first with you as an observant passenger. He will show you quite quickly what your car is capable of doing, and while he is driving he will explain to you what he is doing, his thought process, and the line he is driving. You will be amazed at how quickly he learns the car and how deeply he brakes into the apexes not to mention his smoothness.

Hmmm...

I would love to have the benefit of his coaching, but I only "know him" from some minor personal contact. He is one of the most gracious people you will ever meet, and I know he will set you up for a completely successful experience. Hopefully, that will mean keeping it very simple.

You are pretty new to this driving thing, and so I am going to assume that he will concentrate on some very basic mechanical improvements to your underlying driving style. This alone will take a huge effort for you to assimilate. Make sure you try and understand the fundamental aspects of the changes that he makes for you. Do not be suprised if a day later you struggle mightily to replicate what you have learned, and so to this end try and keep it simple and get as much information that is clear and repeatable as you can.

And have fun!

Paulo - this thread has me thinking of doing the same and working with David at the end of the month for a 1/2 day at WGI. I think I would approach it as follows. I have my car, I will talk to him about my experience and goals, he will likely observe my driving, and I will let him determine the best use of my time with him. I would guess that with his driving record as well as teaching experience, he will know best how I might get the most out of our time together.

Yup. We are (as usual) on the same page here.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

+1





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

If only a 1/2 day....
1st thing I would have him drive my car by himself....get some good data with a pro driving and let him get a little used to the car.
2nd, get in the car with him driving. You can learn a tremendous amount by watching what he does and feeling what your car can do. You will think, "man I didn't know my car could do that!"
3rd, drive the car by yourself. Look at data and he will show you where you can improve.
4th, drive with the coach in the passenger seat to make in-car suggestions. Make sure you have a communications device such as a chatter box. Don't automatically assume he will have one.
Just my opinion, but I think the best way to maximize a short period of time. :D

If we use the length of time needed to move from DE to Racing and divide it by the average length of a Paolo initiated thread we get the key derivative we can use to define the day length of Pro Coaching needed for maximum benefit in minimum time.....
not sure what it is, but have been able to ascertain that it is not .5 day....

As always, just joking, dont overthink it, go have fun. You can always do more later.

Hahaha! You said "derivative". :D





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

+1, no way to even begin communicating in a half day. You need two days minimum or you may as well burn the 1/2 day fee. If you want the coaching and improvement, you have to spend time with a coach. Otherwise you want a lesson.

Do you go for a half hour golf lesson expecting to shed 5 strokes?

I guess you could if your 30 over par. :evilgrin:

BTW, Def have him drove your car and get data. A member of our club just started CR and was at the Glen in a 997 Cup. He was paddocked with TRG and was complaining the car had issues (running 2:05). Buckler gave the car to one of his drovers and he ran 1:56-57 range. :icon501: ( I think the guys name was something like "Lally" ).

Like anything else in life......

Some people are quick learners, others take a lifetime to get it......:bigbye:

^

You should expect he will get you into the "barriers" quicker; it may not be that day but it will be soon after.

No, this is not a "put down or insult"; but you are in a hurry to get to the limit and often the limit is only discovered after you exceed it!

I discovered (but not for the reasons you might think) I was afraid to go where the coaches wanted to take me!

Festina lente!

nevermind.....

^^^I believe that internal or personal "barriers" were what was meant....not the physical tire barriers.

Paolo, Now that we have all given you advice on when ,where why and how you should plan your day with your driving coach, just go have fun.

Thanks Mike....

I will be running Thunderbolt tomorrow with Gary and Sean.....
Just trying to learn the track so I don't make you look bad during my session with David...:)

It might be too late for this, but I wouldn't mess with the setup of your car unless you have sufficient time to get used to it. Ideally, you would do a T&T so that you could find out what setup is really faster for you.

With a half day session, the last thing you want is to f*ck up your setup, realize that it's f*cked up and then spend your money having a pro tell you that you should put it back to how you had it.

The simple fact is that Ron had this car running at a pace that would still win many races in F class, and unless somebody royally screwed it up, the car should still be capable of extremely quick lap times.

the problem is that Paolo's setup is completely f*cked. He needs to get it fixed asap. This car is not capable of winning anything with the current setup. It looks like it's going to roll over in corners. I followed him for many laps over the last two days at Thunderbolt. It's scary to watch. This is but one example. I kindly ask all from questioning his droving technique in the video - this car is messed up, trust me. That's Gary R in a very well setup car in front of him. Watch the behavior of Gary's car compared to Paolo's. Don't be distracted by the front right tire, watch the right rear and how much roll there is and then how it slams back to the ground when he turns back to the left.

http://www.vimeo.com/5556827

broken sway bar???? how did it look on the left turns?

Andy rocks da house:rockon:

It looks wrong on every turn, this is just an extreme example. You can see it in the turn before the sharp right as well. The car is just rolling.

I visually inspected both his sways and didn't see anything broken - although they are not great components. I have a feeling it's a combination of several things including suspension components and alignment. Hard to diagnose at the track.

Wow.... :eek:




Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Sean, great video again.

Were you and Gary going 10/10?

Never really put a full 10/10 lap together, did find the limit on most of the turns though. This is a very interesting track for our cars. There are two extremely fast turns taken flat (T3, T14) and two that are close (T2, T4). Not sure of the gearing on several sections - Gary will look at data after the weekend. The octopus entry is very technical. I have video for you of full laps.

^ I wholly concur. I followed Paolo for a few laps and saw this every time he turned into the righthander in the Octopus. Actually, I'm quite impressed with his droving...that he could hold it all together with whatever is wrong with the suspension. :thumbup: Would be enlightening to learn what is broken.

F'd up is an understatement! That is beyond a "bad set-up". It looks like something(s) is broken, or totally used up and needs to be replaced. If you can't get that fixed before the coaching session, cancel!

Paolo: send your car to DJ.... really.

The car will be dropped off to Dan Jacobs today on my way back home....

A big thanks to Sean and Gary for pointing out the problem..........

Hopefully with the right set up and coaching I can drove a little better.....:)

:thumbup:

Did you guys run the chicane? If so, how did you like it?

Let us know what he finds (or changes).

No chicane, track is quite fast!

Well folks...... an update on the findings of the car (if anyone cares)

The existing suspension was very tired being over 15 years old and showed major signs of wear......

A whole new suspension is necessary with new torsion and sway bars, revalving the shocks, new rear wheel bearings, new cv boots, etc. etc.

Needless to say, I had to cancel with DM...........

On the brigth side, a 2% leakdown test showed signs of excellent engine health....

So......I guess the reason the car was not "podiuming" like it did 9 years ago is not entirely this driver's fault........

Thanks you for listening.... see most of you at T-bolt CR........:bigbye:

Irony is cruel.

16 years ago the car had the latest and greatest!

My sport suspension lasted 5 years on my daily driver. Imagine a track suspension on a track car..... I don't know who is your mechanic but I would be a little frustrated that he never noticed anything wrong after all those inspection.

Carl, I just figured that was the correct set up......and I learned to cope with it.....

Afterall it was a winning car 9 years ago......

Anyway, Dan Jacobs, my new mechanic, will set her right..... then I will have to work on the driver.....

Can torsion bars and sway bars actually get "tired" or is it that
D.J. is going to install much beefier torsion and sway bars.

I am not an engineer John, but I would assume that after 15-16 years any metal bars would get "tired"
by the stress and strain induced upon them by a racecar.........

Furthermore, I do believe that the new smart racing torsion and sway bars that D.J. will install will
be beefier and more up to date...... but than again, what do I know?.....I am just a dentist.......:)

The torsion bars in there are about 5mm lighter than what we run now, sways are old charlie bars and weak, shocks need rebuild, was almost 0 camber in the rear and half of what is correct in front, and on and on... Going full polybronze, Smart Racing sways, Sanders hollow torsions, monoballs, etc. etc. Should really transform the car.

You will think you bought a new car if all those things are really worn out. Even if they are not all worn out just the upgrade to newer components, installed together like a team will transform your car.

Judging by the video you may want to budget some more $$ for additional items that are going to be found during the in depth inspection.:crying:

Paolo,

I had D.J. install that set up on my 87 Carrera. You will like it immediately.

I had to play around with the sway bars to get the car where I liked it.

Other than that, good to go...

How do you play around with sway bars?

Is it easy to do at the track?

How do you know when you have reached the ideal setting?

Sounds like the basis for a Boston 12 pager!
:jumper:

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Paolo,

From a mechanical standpoint, it's not difficult. A little cramped, but not difficult. Ask D.J. how to do it when you pick up the car.

As for the correct setting, that's going to take some time for you to determine.

Another possibility is for someone else to set up the car - at least to get a baseline. And by set up, I mean taking it on the track and determining a neutral setting.

If you think that's a PIA, be thankful you don't have adjustable dampers.

Just my 02c

:thumbsup: Good advise.

Have a professional shop go thru the suspension... then get a talented driver to sort the car out at the track.

:cheers:

Paolo MUST be pretty talented to drive that POS as fast as he has!!

Recognizing handling issues and setting up a car PROPERLY...

may require a bit more experience than Paolo has.

No one's questioned his talent in driving that ill handling Porsche.

:cheers:

Thanks John, will do.......

On a side note, I am proud to say that (under supervision) this past week-end I changed the front brake pads at the track........

So..... you see, there is hope for me to learn a little bit about wrench turning........:)

Way to go Paolo!!

And by the way, just to be not outdone by you, I have hired my own Factory Trained Ruf Instructor. See my avatar (that is me and my dog). I will ask him if he can help you with your suspension -

John

plus he'll work for biscuits. Or bbq steak tips!!!!!

Kind of like the scene in The Art of Racing in the Rain (great book for those of us with track cars AND dogs; I listened to it on the way back from Calabogie last month and really enjoyed it).

I am pretty sure the car will be 1000% better when it comes out of DJ shop.........

As far as fine tuning I have several podium finisher racers friends that I am sure won't mind helping me out......:thumbup:

John......make sure you bring the ruf instructor at T-bolt.......:D

Steve, you are never going to forget those Boston Steak Tips...... are you?:cheers: