WC Touring and GT
03-20-2009, 02:35 PM
#46
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Thread Starter
man, you guys are trigger happy.
That was what i was refering too. I mentioned we had seen about 2 seconds from slick to hoosier or R compound. on the same day we have seen little difference between toyo and hooseir, albeit the hoosier does feel better and seems to give a few tenths better times. We have cars that have not changed in many years, so the times are very consistant year after year, month to month. I used to drive hoosiers, even a new set on occasion, but they were the R3s . since 2001, ive only had toyos from WC on my car and have spun the same times. within 1 tenth year after year, until the track changed.
1:40.1 to 1:40.2. at laguna and later, 1:38.8 with the track change on toyos. Ive driven a car like mine on slicks, and it was night and day handling, both on the outlap and throughout the race. Anderson runs between the two. in fact in a race I was giving him a hand with, he was only using the toyos for practice and the slicks for the qual and race. ( POC so there was a lot of practice sessions) consistantly, 2-3 seconds slower were the toyos.
Im not fighting you on this, just giving my observation, feel and recap of our own testing.
Your bmw guys out here have seen similar things on slicks vs hoosiers/toyos.
a bunch of them get back east to race with you guys. (like VJ, Warren, and a few others)
a lot of folks do put too much weight on slicks vs DOT as far as time, but from what ive seen from many of the real consistant racers at the track, when guys I know, change for the SU, or Group 3 SCCA and run slicks their times, both 1st green lap and the rest of the lap are faster than the toyos or hoosier at their best. I do know that a heat-cycled to death hoosier of old, is about 3 seconds slower than a new one. one of the reasons i never went back. so far, ive never had a very bad set of toyos unless they were really old, in cycles or age. (as I get them used now, both near new 1-2 heat cycles or very old, 2004). The worst the toyos have ever varied in a day has been about 1 second, in their worst shape.
mk
That was what i was refering too. I mentioned we had seen about 2 seconds from slick to hoosier or R compound. on the same day we have seen little difference between toyo and hooseir, albeit the hoosier does feel better and seems to give a few tenths better times. We have cars that have not changed in many years, so the times are very consistant year after year, month to month. I used to drive hoosiers, even a new set on occasion, but they were the R3s . since 2001, ive only had toyos from WC on my car and have spun the same times. within 1 tenth year after year, until the track changed.
1:40.1 to 1:40.2. at laguna and later, 1:38.8 with the track change on toyos. Ive driven a car like mine on slicks, and it was night and day handling, both on the outlap and throughout the race. Anderson runs between the two. in fact in a race I was giving him a hand with, he was only using the toyos for practice and the slicks for the qual and race. ( POC so there was a lot of practice sessions) consistantly, 2-3 seconds slower were the toyos.
Im not fighting you on this, just giving my observation, feel and recap of our own testing.
Your bmw guys out here have seen similar things on slicks vs hoosiers/toyos.
a bunch of them get back east to race with you guys. (like VJ, Warren, and a few others)
a lot of folks do put too much weight on slicks vs DOT as far as time, but from what ive seen from many of the real consistant racers at the track, when guys I know, change for the SU, or Group 3 SCCA and run slicks their times, both 1st green lap and the rest of the lap are faster than the toyos or hoosier at their best. I do know that a heat-cycled to death hoosier of old, is about 3 seconds slower than a new one. one of the reasons i never went back. so far, ive never had a very bad set of toyos unless they were really old, in cycles or age. (as I get them used now, both near new 1-2 heat cycles or very old, 2004). The worst the toyos have ever varied in a day has been about 1 second, in their worst shape.
mk
The ONLY thing I've ever said with regards to Hoosier R-comps and slicks is that the lap time and grip difference is not nearly as big as some folks want to make it out to be...usually folks who need an excuse for why they aren't going fast. Toyo R-comps are a totally different ballgame.
Properly setup for each tire, a car can turn very similar fast laps and achieve very similar amounts of grip. The biggest difference comes in consistency...the R-comps come up to temp sooner and are a MUCH better tire than even the soft compound slicks for the first 1-2 laps. After that, the slicks tend to catch up and will stay consistent quite a bit longer than the R-comps. Ultimately, slicks are faster, but the gap has narrowed quite a bit in the last 3-4 years as Hoosier, Hankook, Avon, and Kumho have gone head to head with their R-comp "slicks" that have only 1-2 grooves to meet D.O.T. regs.
Mark - I'm not sure why you continue fighting me on this. As far as I know, all you ever run are Toyo's. I don't believe you've ever had both Hoosier R-comps and slicks on your car, must less in the same weekend, as we have.
Properly setup for each tire, a car can turn very similar fast laps and achieve very similar amounts of grip. The biggest difference comes in consistency...the R-comps come up to temp sooner and are a MUCH better tire than even the soft compound slicks for the first 1-2 laps. After that, the slicks tend to catch up and will stay consistent quite a bit longer than the R-comps. Ultimately, slicks are faster, but the gap has narrowed quite a bit in the last 3-4 years as Hoosier, Hankook, Avon, and Kumho have gone head to head with their R-comp "slicks" that have only 1-2 grooves to meet D.O.T. regs.
Mark - I'm not sure why you continue fighting me on this. As far as I know, all you ever run are Toyo's. I don't believe you've ever had both Hoosier R-comps and slicks on your car, must less in the same weekend, as we have.
03-20-2009, 02:50 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We also tested back to back a new set of R6s on two different cars, large tired, and small tired and saw no real difference. all times were in the 1:39.0 range at laguna. (390rwhp C5Vet and BMW e36 euro)
I personally havent driven the new r6s, and would love to as I would bet I could pick up .5 seconds or so. dont think or expect it would be more. Again, the slicks on a car almost exactly like mine was amazing!
I do agree that the hoosiers , new would be a bigger difference than I saw with years on the R3, new and used.
mk
I personally havent driven the new r6s, and would love to as I would bet I could pick up .5 seconds or so. dont think or expect it would be more. Again, the slicks on a car almost exactly like mine was amazing!
I do agree that the hoosiers , new would be a bigger difference than I saw with years on the R3, new and used.
mk
03-20-2009, 03:24 PM
#50
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Honestly...take a look at the open R-comp classes at the SCCA and NASA Championships and tell me how many of the podium finishers are on Toyo's. Toyo's are a glorified high performance street tire. That's the reason they make good spec tires for Spec E30 and Spec Miata.
03-20-2009, 04:18 PM
#52
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Thread Starter
Hey, I dont want to get in a heated argument about it, and by no means am I an expert in the differences. the only thing Im going on is what ive seen hear out west, with many of of the BMW guys. to say that toyo vs Hoosier is much more than hoosier vs slick is a little stretch. havent seen more than 2 seconds for toyo vs slick out here. But, hey, the only reason Im thinking of getting a set of R6s, is that you are so bullish on them. I might have to reconsider trying a set this season. I have a feeling the new R888s will be slower due to more exposed tread, but thats a guess.
I think ive just become so desensitized from all the "seconds " from doing things on the race car. If I add all the things that would make me go faster, my 20 years old stock 928 porsche stationwagon, with 20 year old components and a street tune, would be faster than WCGT today!!
1:38.8 today (or before I just changed the engine 3 races ago) on 4 year old Toyos.
2 seconds toyo to hoosiers
1 more second to slicks
2 seconds for a real driver like VR or you. he he
1 second for an alignment
1 second for real shock that are not blown out
1 second for a pro-tune
.5second for some rear brake bias. Almost none currently
So, If its me or the car, you end up with a 1:38.8, and consistant 1:39.0 for years now. (keep in mind this is as fast as a top 10 Laguna time in 1999 on BFG R1s and top drivers and pretty built up cars.)
Doing all the mods, I end up with saving 1:30.3 a time 2 seconds faster than the winning WC GT race time. Even if you pull out 2 seconds you and VR would have on me driving the car on edge ( he he he ), you end up with the winning WCGT 2007 time, vs comp coupe vipers with 200more HP , RSR like GT3cup cars,, basically, $200k+ cars and the best drivers in the world. (pobst, henzler, etc etc). vs my 20 year old street car with 308rwhp and 3000lbs.
So, the next time I hear i can gain a second from a mod, unless it is a toyo to slick, im going to puke!
In a way, we are kind of saying the same thing. Lots of guys lean on mods to make excuses to why they are slow. I dont think there as much as some say from toyos to hoosiers and from hoosiers to slicks. (you hear 3-4 seconds all the time) in actuality, some pretty decent drivers are seeing 1-2 seconds from DOTs to slicks and about .5 second or maybe 1 second an separate any top DOT tire today. (kuhmo, toyo, hoosier, etc ). again, my opinion.
Heck, you almost have me sold. If i knew I could gain (or have the potential to gain) 2 seconds by going to a hoosier, I would put a set on my credit card tomorrow! sub one second , and trade offs late in the race, are not worth it. I think im doing pretty well on the toyos as they are, dont you?
bang for buck cant be beat. (near free!!! )
mk
I think ive just become so desensitized from all the "seconds " from doing things on the race car. If I add all the things that would make me go faster, my 20 years old stock 928 porsche stationwagon, with 20 year old components and a street tune, would be faster than WCGT today!!
1:38.8 today (or before I just changed the engine 3 races ago) on 4 year old Toyos.
2 seconds toyo to hoosiers
1 more second to slicks
2 seconds for a real driver like VR or you. he he
1 second for an alignment
1 second for real shock that are not blown out
1 second for a pro-tune
.5second for some rear brake bias. Almost none currently
So, If its me or the car, you end up with a 1:38.8, and consistant 1:39.0 for years now. (keep in mind this is as fast as a top 10 Laguna time in 1999 on BFG R1s and top drivers and pretty built up cars.)
Doing all the mods, I end up with saving 1:30.3 a time 2 seconds faster than the winning WC GT race time. Even if you pull out 2 seconds you and VR would have on me driving the car on edge ( he he he ), you end up with the winning WCGT 2007 time, vs comp coupe vipers with 200more HP , RSR like GT3cup cars,, basically, $200k+ cars and the best drivers in the world. (pobst, henzler, etc etc). vs my 20 year old street car with 308rwhp and 3000lbs.
So, the next time I hear i can gain a second from a mod, unless it is a toyo to slick, im going to puke!
In a way, we are kind of saying the same thing. Lots of guys lean on mods to make excuses to why they are slow. I dont think there as much as some say from toyos to hoosiers and from hoosiers to slicks. (you hear 3-4 seconds all the time) in actuality, some pretty decent drivers are seeing 1-2 seconds from DOTs to slicks and about .5 second or maybe 1 second an separate any top DOT tire today. (kuhmo, toyo, hoosier, etc ). again, my opinion.
Heck, you almost have me sold. If i knew I could gain (or have the potential to gain) 2 seconds by going to a hoosier, I would put a set on my credit card tomorrow!
sub one second , and trade offs late in the race, are not worth it. I think im doing pretty well on the toyos as they are, dont you?bang for buck cant be beat. (near free!!!
)mk
No offense, but it's hard to take much of what you say about tires with a grain of salt if you and your friends believe there's not much difference between Toyo and Hoosier R-comps. To put it simply: You're doing something wrong. The gap between those is quite a bit more substantial than the gap between Hooser R-comps and slicks, even without any setup time. You should literally be able to bolt them on and see an instant drop in lap times.
Honestly...take a look at the open R-comp classes at the SCCA and NASA Championships and tell me how many of the podium finishers are on Toyo's. Toyo's are a glorified high performance street tire. That's the reason they make good spec tires for Spec E30 and Spec Miata.
Honestly...take a look at the open R-comp classes at the SCCA and NASA Championships and tell me how many of the podium finishers are on Toyo's. Toyo's are a glorified high performance street tire. That's the reason they make good spec tires for Spec E30 and Spec Miata.
03-20-2009, 04:23 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I didnt say they are not faster, just not as much as Bryan is indicating. at their very best, they are maybe 1 second slower than good slicks, and 1 second faster than toyos, but what im seeing the guys that have bought new sets, have not seen much time difference. maybe .5 seconds, but thats a lot in my book.
I know they are faster and someday soon, Ill be able to do the test!
mk
I know they are faster and someday soon, Ill be able to do the test!
mk
03-20-2009, 05:16 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I didnt say they are not faster, just not as much as Bryan is indicating. at their very best, they are maybe 1 second slower than good slicks, and 1 second faster than toyos, but what im seeing the guys that have bought new sets, have not seen much time difference. maybe .5 seconds, but thats a lot in my book.
I know they are faster and someday soon, Ill be able to do the test!
mk
I know they are faster and someday soon, Ill be able to do the test!
mk
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-20-2009, 06:13 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I already did. In fact, Bryan already recapped, in not so many words, his statement of the past, even going so far as to say hoosiers are better than slicks on the first couple of laps.
Reality is, we have seen a pretty clear difference between 1st lap and rest of race lap times (verified with My laps times from our races and those we race with) when the tire change from hoosiers to slicks is made, OR when toyos to slicks and toyos to hoosiers have been made.
Look no farther than the most recent tire test made in one of the grassroots racing magazines or SCCA mag, on a test with good drivers and cars shod with all of the major DOT tires. looked like all of them were pretty darn close.
mk
Look n
Reality is, we have seen a pretty clear difference between 1st lap and rest of race lap times (verified with My laps times from our races and those we race with) when the tire change from hoosiers to slicks is made, OR when toyos to slicks and toyos to hoosiers have been made.
Look no farther than the most recent tire test made in one of the grassroots racing magazines or SCCA mag, on a test with good drivers and cars shod with all of the major DOT tires. looked like all of them were pretty darn close.
mk
Look n
03-20-2009, 06:22 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Get a life!
It was a said as a joke really pointing to Bryans fight on tire performance of DOTs vs slicks. Im sure he was talking about hoosiers, which he said were bettter on the first few laps. I have to call BS on that, as Ive seen top times on the 2nd laps on occasion, in any slick or DOT based racing group. slick times in the same car are always going to be faster unless the poor fool doesnt know how to warm up tires on the pace lap.
mk
It was a said as a joke really pointing to Bryans fight on tire performance of DOTs vs slicks. Im sure he was talking about hoosiers, which he said were bettter on the first few laps. I have to call BS on that, as Ive seen top times on the 2nd laps on occasion, in any slick or DOT based racing group. slick times in the same car are always going to be faster unless the poor fool doesnt know how to warm up tires on the pace lap.
mk
03-20-2009, 06:24 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Get a life!
It was a said as a joke really pointing to Bryans fight on tire performance of DOTs vs slicks. Im sure he was talking about hoosiers, which he said were bettter on the first few laps. I have to call BS on that, as Ive seen top times on the 2nd laps on occasion, in any slick or DOT based racing group. slick times in the same car are always going to be faster unless the poor fool doesnt know how to warm up tires on the pace lap.
mk
It was a said as a joke really pointing to Bryans fight on tire performance of DOTs vs slicks. Im sure he was talking about hoosiers, which he said were bettter on the first few laps. I have to call BS on that, as Ive seen top times on the 2nd laps on occasion, in any slick or DOT based racing group. slick times in the same car are always going to be faster unless the poor fool doesnt know how to warm up tires on the pace lap.
mk
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-20-2009, 06:28 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
If backpedal = fact, then yes, Im backpedalling.
If you looked at the post, it was a slight dig at Bryan and those comments made months ago. want to blow it out of proportion, go ahead. Im not playing as its a stupid argment. no one with any racing smarts would use a DOT hoosier for qualifying even if they had only 3 laps on the track. (ie warm up and two hot laps.) Bryan says the hoosiers are better for the first two laps vs any slick. I disagree. No more no less. hey, lets have a poll
mk
If you looked at the post, it was a slight dig at Bryan and those comments made months ago. want to blow it out of proportion, go ahead. Im not playing as its a stupid argment. no one with any racing smarts would use a DOT hoosier for qualifying even if they had only 3 laps on the track. (ie warm up and two hot laps.) Bryan says the hoosiers are better for the first two laps vs any slick. I disagree. No more no less. hey, lets have a poll
mk
03-20-2009, 06:31 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
If backpedal = fact, then yes, Im backpedalling.
If you looked at the post, it was a slight dig at Bryan and those comments made months ago. want to blow it out of proportion, go ahead. Im not playing as its a stupid argment. no one with any racing smarts would use a DOT hoosier for qualifying even if they had only 3 laps on the track. (ie warm up and two hot laps.) Bryan says the hoosiers are better for the first two laps vs any slick. I disagree. No more no less. hey, lets have a poll
mk
If you looked at the post, it was a slight dig at Bryan and those comments made months ago. want to blow it out of proportion, go ahead. Im not playing as its a stupid argment. no one with any racing smarts would use a DOT hoosier for qualifying even if they had only 3 laps on the track. (ie warm up and two hot laps.) Bryan says the hoosiers are better for the first two laps vs any slick. I disagree. No more no less. hey, lets have a poll
mk
I am still waiting for "all the BMW guys" who say slicks are the same as Toyos.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach