Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Suspension (Moton Clubsport vs Moton Motorsport)

 
Old 02-18-2009, 05:08 PM
  #31  
va122
Super User
 
va122's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: On Rennlist avoiding work
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Yes.
PM me what you want for them, spring rate approx miles and condition please

Thx
va122 is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 05:48 PM
  #32  
Accelerator
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta area
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
How often do you have to set it up? I will be frequenting 4-5 tracks ( Barber, RA, CMP and VIR) Surely one size doesn't fit all. I need something that's low maintenance, I'm not the arrive and drive type, I sometimes decide the day before if I'm going (based on weather).
With any Moton product comes increased maintenance. I transitioned from JIC Cross to 3-way Motons. I now have to jack up each side of the car (the only way to get an accurate pressure reading) in the AM to check canister pressures and carry along all the amenities to add N2, if needed.

As far as turns 3 and 5 at Road Atlanta (I presume those are the 2 of which you spoke) there should be a much better transition through compression and rebound with the Motons. I haven't had a good test day at RA to determine that but hope to get some answers first part of March with BMW.

My current settings are middle of the road, for the most part, and the ride on the expressway is surprisingly comfortable, even with 20 and 26kg springs.

Car is a 996 turbo and weighs about 3450 with driver.

Last edited by Accelerator; 02-22-2009 at 07:54 AM.
Accelerator is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 06:36 PM
  #33  
Larry Herman
F1 Resident Adult
Rennlist Member

Small Business Sponsor

 
Larry Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lambertville, NJ
Posts: 10,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Accelerator View Post
With any Moton product comes increased maintenance. I transitioned from JIC Cross to 3-way Motons. I now have to jack up each side of the car (the only way to get an accurate pressure reading) in the AM to check canister pressures and carry along all the amenities to add N2, if needed.
Are yours leaking? Once I was satisfied with my canister pressures, I left them alone. Maybe reset them once over the season. I found that playing with pressures was a last resort, not a primary tuning tool.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2016 Chevy Volt - Electricity can be fun!
National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car

CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 06:40 PM
  #34  
Veloce Raptor
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In a race car...
Posts: 39,165
Likes: 0
Received 37 Likes on 17 Posts
Default

I have added nitrogen to various of mine a total of 3 times in 18 months, and I think one of those times was because the damn schrader valves on the pressure gagues are uber-weaksauce & leak like sieves.
Veloce Raptor is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 07:06 PM
  #35  
Accelerator
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta area
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Larry Herman View Post
Are yours leaking? Once I was satisfied with my canister pressures, I left them alone. Maybe reset them once over the season. I found that playing with pressures was a last resort, not a primary tuning tool.
Larry,
The fronts no. The rears yes. I already had to pull the left rear shock off bc it was leaking at the bottom of the tube where the heim joint (I guess it would be called) end screws into the body. I don't want to go through pulling 2 more off and returning them. It's good to know that once corrected I won't have to do that each day. Pretty bad to pay that much for new equipment only to have it leak but I have heard these stories before.
Accelerator is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 07:34 PM
  #36  
911S3.6
User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in the Hinterland
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

It is helpful if you have someone with knowledge of chassis tuning to help you set up a base line
for rebound and compression, based on your car's weight, power, balance, sprigning etc..
Then you can customize the settings from there for your particular needs.

As Larry said there is no -0-, just the initial base line, and then the adjustments that are dictated by
each individual and track, i.e. rough, smooth, undulating, etc...
Keep a log book with those initial base line settings, and then note each change you make, so you
have a frame of reference and qualify what the car is doing.
The Moton Motorsports is just able to do more fine tuning and be more precise for the application.
Generally, your cars characteristics dictate where the base line is, you don't really vary much from that. But, Moton GIVES you a lot of variable because the settings for a 2000 lb car will be on the opposite end of a 3000 lb car, spring rates etc considered.
As VR said, if you street drive the car too, Motons will allow you to have a amazingly smooth ride
on very stiff springing, just because of that adjustability.
911S3.6 is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 07:40 PM
  #37  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Accelerator View Post
With any Moton product comes increased maintenance. I transitioned from JIC Cross to 3-way Motons. I now have to jack up each side of the car (the only way to get an accurate pressure reading) in the AM to check canister pressures and carry along all the amenities to add N2, if needed.

As far as turns 3 and 5 at Road Atlanta (I presume those are the 2 of which you spoke) there should be a much better transition through compression and rebound with the Motons. I haven't had a good test day at RA to determine that but hope to get some answers first part of March with BMW.

My current settings are middle of the road, for the most part, and the ride on the expressway is surprisingly comfortable, even with 20 and 26kg springs.

Car is a 996 turbo and weighs about 3650 with driver.

Who is this? I have to know you if you track a 996 TT at Road Atlanta. John Bridges, Al Norton? Sounds eerily like something Al Norton would do but he hasn't had his long enough for it to be leaking. I least I hope so.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 07:44 PM
  #38  
2000gt3cup
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
2000gt3cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by va122 View Post
VR, can you send to me too [email protected]
me too please... [email protected] thanks
2000gt3cup is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 08:05 PM
  #39  
Veloce Raptor
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In a race car...
Posts: 39,165
Likes: 0
Received 37 Likes on 17 Posts
Default

Sent.
Veloce Raptor is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 08:24 PM
  #40  
Accelerator
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta area
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Who is this? I have to know you if you track a 996 TT at Road Atlanta. John Bridges, Al Norton? Sounds eerily like something Al Norton would do but he hasn't had his long enough for it to be leaking. I least I hope so.
Al Norton here. Let me tell you how long it takes for new Moton Motorsports to leak. How about right after you get the car home from alignment and corner balancing and let it sit in the garage for a couple of days.

Do I know you?
Accelerator is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 08:46 PM
  #41  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Dez aka Heavychevy
wanna911 is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:24 PM
  #42  
Accelerator
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta area
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Hi Dez,

Maybe someone can direct us to a highly technical article that will give good info on adjustment of high-speed compression HSC and low-speed compression LSC as well as rebound HSR. Would be nice to have a guide that says when the car does this, do that. As I mentioned to you earlier, I have Carroll Smith's Engineer in your Pocket which I find useful but I would like a more complete and possibly more up to date treatise on the interactions of all the suspension components. I've Googled every way I can think of and haven't come up with much. I suspect the article you sent to me was the one VR is sending to those requesting it.

Any of you hard-core racers out there have any suggestions? Soft core also accepted.
Accelerator is offline  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 PM
  #43  
Larry Herman
F1 Resident Adult
Rennlist Member

Small Business Sponsor

 
Larry Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lambertville, NJ
Posts: 10,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Accelerator View Post
Any of you hard-core racers out there have any suggestions?
Adjusting shocks is as much Art as it is Science. In fact, if you don't have shock potentiometers and full data aquisition like Geoffrey, it is 100% Art. You have to be able to feel exactly what the car is doing, then understand what the shock settings do, and then apply that information. For example, I had a high speed front brake lockup problem (+130 mph) in braking zones that fell away from the car. I fixed it by increasing the low speed compression in the front by one click. How do I communicate that scenario in a guide?

Want your car setup right? You may not know what right is. Get a pro like Chris Cervelli to set it up, and then you can play with it from there. $1k invested like that can save a lot of mistakes and can be well worth it in the long run.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2016 Chevy Volt - Electricity can be fun!
National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car

CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman is offline  
Old 02-19-2009, 08:42 AM
  #44  
Geoffrey
Super User
 
Geoffrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kingston, NY
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

For example, I had a high speed front brake lockup problem (+130 mph) in braking zones that fell away from the car. I fixed it by increasing the low speed compression in the front by one click.
Interesting, I would have gone the other way and reduced the compression dampening to allow the weight to transfer more quickly to the front. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish by slowing down the weight transfer to the front of the car.

Even with the damper position sensors I find I rely more on a logical approach of evaluating what the car is doing vs what I want it to do in every part of the corner. Data Engineer experts will tell you that the compression and rebound should be equal when looking at the damper histograms (not equally set on the damper adjusters) which show the time spent at each damper velocity. I've adjusted the dampers by just using data and I've adjusted them just by feel. My opinion is that the feel is a better approach, however, the data has provided me additional input and caused me to think about things I wouldn't have if I didn't have the data. In addition to simple histograms, I look at roll rates and roll frequency which has helped me select spring rates and adjust anti roll bars. After the WGI club race where Chris and I were comparing data (which was very interesting), I ended up doing some significant suspension changes (Lowered the car, measured the toe change over suspension movements and fixed the bump steer, changed main sprnigs at all 4 corners, changed the tender springs in the rear) and was able to knock 1 second off my WGI times. All of this was to fix one specific problem in high speed corners. The data was extremely helpful with this exercise. And, FWIW, my car with spring rates approximately 1/4 of Chris's had the same amount of roll. It took awhile to figure that one out...

Geoffrey is offline  
Old 02-19-2009, 09:26 AM
  #45  
Flying Finn
King of Cool
Rennlist Member

 
Flying Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 14,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
The Clubsport dampers have a slightly different construction than the comparable 2 way motorsports version. Some parts are steel rather than aluminum so the unsprung weight is more. The dampers function the same as the motorsports version and parts are interchangable. They also have the same range of adjustablity, just not the level of refinement (15 clicks vs 7 as mentioned above). I think that at the club level, the clubsport dampers are a good choice for someone just getting into adjustable suspension and learning how it works. They are about 2/3rd the price of the motorsport 2 way and about 1/2 the price of the motorsport 3 way. More importantly than the difference between the two level of dampers is the spring package (tender & main) choice for your driving skill and your application.
Even though I don't have firsthand experience with these specific shocks I completely agree with Greg based on my experience with dirt bikes that have a lot of adjustability in their suspension (travel, stiffness, damping in & out) and the main problem for most riders were that they really didn't know what to do with the adjustments. Just setting up the ride height or basic stiffness was a problem and I have no doubt this is the case with many club racers, especially ones who are starting.

I remember one pro race once adjusted on of our bikes and after he just but some kind of basic, quick set-up, you could go over this nasty washboard sections twice the speed as before and the bike hardly moved.

It takes A LOT of trial and error before you even start to know what you're doing:
You need to make one SINGLE adjustment, go out, time your lap, come back change SOMETHING ELSE, do another timed lap, compare times and repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...
If you have 3 way adjustment on front & back, do the math how many combinations you'll have in order to have tried them ALL...
And obviously you need to do that all again when you go to the next rack...

If I ever get enough time to go to track, I'm going to beg Greg, Larry, Chris or some experienced racer (best if he has experience with a similar 993 as mine) to share his "notebook" since it would save a ton of my time to get the basic set-up close to what's good.

With that said, those of you who already offered to do that in this thread, if you don't mind, please send it to my as well. [email protected] is my e-mail. THAAAANKK YOOUUU!
Flying Finn is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Suspension (Moton Clubsport vs Moton Motorsport)


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: