Torque or HP on the road course????? Which is better?
02-05-2009, 04:03 PM
#106
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As I've gone over explanations and Articles, and the math of this a thousand times trying to build a ton of motors, Here is my simple explination.
hp describes how FAST a motor can put down its torque.
Sooo... in answer to the S2000 guy. It has 2 cam lobes. One high, one low. -(I love those things) The average torque almost NEVER drops off. Its a flat line right to redline. In fact, with the supercharger, it probably almost never stops climbing.
Gear that thing for the upper 3500rpms (revs to 9K stock) and you have nothing but huge horsepower turning PEAK torque for a huge amount of time.
Take a Single cam V8. Same Peak power. HIGHER peak torque. By say 50ft lbs. you'll see that in the upper rpms where the power is. Average torque has fallen to something dismal. So now you have the top 3K Rpm (highest horsepower band) turning torque numbers lower than the S2000.
S2000 wins. -- Well or NSX in my case. V8 guys couldnt stand me.
Key here.
HorsePower describes how fast Torque is getting put down.
hp describes how FAST a motor can put down its torque.
Sooo... in answer to the S2000 guy. It has 2 cam lobes. One high, one low. -(I love those things) The average torque almost NEVER drops off. Its a flat line right to redline. In fact, with the supercharger, it probably almost never stops climbing.
Gear that thing for the upper 3500rpms (revs to 9K stock) and you have nothing but huge horsepower turning PEAK torque for a huge amount of time.
Take a Single cam V8. Same Peak power. HIGHER peak torque. By say 50ft lbs. you'll see that in the upper rpms where the power is. Average torque has fallen to something dismal. So now you have the top 3K Rpm (highest horsepower band) turning torque numbers lower than the S2000.
S2000 wins. -- Well or NSX in my case. V8 guys couldnt stand me.
Key here.
HorsePower describes how fast Torque is getting put down.
02-05-2009, 04:05 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
Oh geezzzz. VR, we are talking even with the car is off line, traction is not an issue, etc. There are many turns where traction is NOT an issue. the point is there is NEVER a point where a viper will have any more accelerative forces to the rear wheels if the HP is the same. PERIOD!
Now, go back to the daytona protos. same thing. It was really funny, where the porsche was supposed to be loosing out of the turns, the V8 was actually loosing the launch contrary to the announcers predictions. the V8 car was handling better and gaining just before the turn exit onto the straight.
There, same chasss, engine position , and one having MUCH less torque than the other.
Now, your feable post below says that HP torque, has "0" to do with this?
well, isnt it amazing that the GT1 V8s can destroy the GT2 GT3RS in ALMS? why, they got more power!! its that simple. The GT2 vipers can destroy Supercup GT3s too. why, more power!
Look, you said you would take a higher torque engine output over a lower torque engine output at the same 400hp any day of the week. That is just silly, as without knowing the HP curves of the 400hp engine with lower torque, you have NO idea if your REAR WHEEL TORQUE, as multiplied through the gears will be greater or lower! I take that GT3RS plot, go find a 440rwhp curve from a normal V8. Plot it on it. maybe find a blower on a V8, if you really want to see the point. you will find that at any speed below redline (asssuming max HP is near redline) that the GT3RS engine, with probabably near HALF the torque will have more HP through the rpm ranges of the gears.
Sure it can go both ways, but the point is, your choice is incorrect, because you are not clarifiying that point.
Mark
Now, go back to the daytona protos. same thing. It was really funny, where the porsche was supposed to be loosing out of the turns, the V8 was actually loosing the launch contrary to the announcers predictions. the V8 car was handling better and gaining just before the turn exit onto the straight.
There, same chasss, engine position , and one having MUCH less torque than the other.
Now, your feable post below says that HP torque, has "0" to do with this?
well, isnt it amazing that the GT1 V8s can destroy the GT2 GT3RS in ALMS? why, they got more power!! its that simple. The GT2 vipers can destroy Supercup GT3s too. why, more power!
Look, you said you would take a higher torque engine output over a lower torque engine output at the same 400hp any day of the week. That is just silly, as without knowing the HP curves of the 400hp engine with lower torque, you have NO idea if your REAR WHEEL TORQUE, as multiplied through the gears will be greater or lower! I take that GT3RS plot, go find a 440rwhp curve from a normal V8. Plot it on it. maybe find a blower on a V8, if you really want to see the point. you will find that at any speed below redline (asssuming max HP is near redline) that the GT3RS engine, with probabably near HALF the torque will have more HP through the rpm ranges of the gears.
Sure it can go both ways, but the point is, your choice is incorrect, because you are not clarifiying that point.
Mark
Mark, you are comparing apples to ashtrays. Porsche 911s come out of corners better than Vipers ANYWAY because most of the weight of the car is over the drive wheels. Has zero to do with HP or TQ or RPM. That is one of their primary advantages over front engined cars.
I cannot believe that I actually have to explain this to you.
I cannot believe that I actually have to explain this to you.
02-05-2009, 04:09 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
Oy vey. Mark, I simply cannot keep up with your volume of words while you try to dig yourself out of a hole about 911's being better off the corners than Vipers.
Go out to a technical track sometime in, say, a track-prepared E36 M3 (1996+) and a track-prepared first generation S2000. Both have 240hp. Get back to me on lap times and especially race results.
Again, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
Go out to a technical track sometime in, say, a track-prepared E36 M3 (1996+) and a track-prepared first generation S2000. Both have 240hp. Get back to me on lap times and especially race results.
Again, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
02-05-2009, 04:16 PM
#109
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This was a good thread to stay out of! 
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-05-2009, 04:31 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
There are plenty of 400ft-lb 400hp engines that cant hold a candle to a restricted 996GT3RS engine. Or, just take my graph above and put a rev limiter at 400rwhp. go find a 400rwhp viper and match redlines. the viper still will have much more torque and yet, it will be deficient in at every speed on a road course..
so, you stay very vague with your prefernce below. Two 400hp cars, one with more torque, you take the higher torque car. You will get spanked all day util tuesday if that is your only qualifier. You should know better than that if you have any " real world experience".
You have to look no farther than the engines HP curve and the area under the curve, or more accurately said, look at the HP seconds over a road course. the one with the most will win, all things being equal. AND this can happen with a car with an engine with a very low torque value. BUT, remember, HP determines REAR WHEEL TORQUE, which is the force that determines acceleration.
Stop fighting it!
mk
so, you stay very vague with your prefernce below. Two 400hp cars, one with more torque, you take the higher torque car. You will get spanked all day util tuesday if that is your only qualifier. You should know better than that if you have any " real world experience".
You have to look no farther than the engines HP curve and the area under the curve, or more accurately said, look at the HP seconds over a road course. the one with the most will win, all things being equal. AND this can happen with a car with an engine with a very low torque value. BUT, remember, HP determines REAR WHEEL TORQUE, which is the force that determines acceleration.
Stop fighting it!
mk
I am really thinking there are NO good examples you can produce to get a true answer. Every race car out there is set up to produce the maximum possible benefit for the circumstances they have. Gearboxs are always set up to take advantage of the torque/hp of each car and tailored for each given track to produce the results needed. Want proof Mark, your Viper/Porsche scenario looks great on paper, except that in real life the Porsche produces more power due to the ram air airbox and intake,better traction due to the rear engine, and I am going to guess has a much better aero, how about the weight of the 2 cars, that factors also doesn't it ? So really we/you can not compare the two.
Please let me know if you come up with 2 truly equal scenarios that we can discuss.
02-05-2009, 04:34 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
The way to make your point here is not to interject more variables. I for one, thing that the E36 in our classes is a hot car, it could beat the S2000 for the exact reasons that im talking about. its hp curve is PEAKY, where the HP curve of the E36s is less peaky. translation= e36 has more average HP over any operational speed range.
Now, I would hate to break it to you , but the stock street S2000s at the time attack at buttonwillow have dipped into the 1:57s on DOTs. to put this in perspective, all the hot BMW drivers and cars are not running this fast with the same HP. There is no stock BMW in the world with 240hp e36 that can run this fast. This is another argument.
But, you wanted street prepared S2000s competiting with E36s, at a technical track. Buttonwillow #13 is such a place and all the hot drivers of BMWs live there. Sofro, holder, warren, cervanetes, Vj, browning, etc. Go ask warren if he can run a 1:57 with even his Hp car. He cant and he has been back east and fights all the BMW battles out east when he can.
The point is, you said if you had to choose between 400hp cars and one had less torque than the other, you would choose the higher torque car. this is not going to guarantee you a faster car at any point on the race track.
sure, you could find some hp curves that make your point, BUT the point of this argument is that I can find some that make mine as well, meaning that 400hp and a higher or lower max torque, DOESNT gurantee better acceleration.
In comparing the 911s vs the vipers, ive seen this first hand. trust me, it can be on turns where grip and traction are not issues for either car.
All i need to do is find two hp curves , one at 400rwhp and the other at 400rwhp where the average HP is greater with the lower torque engine. this happens all the time. Sure, if you can find a peaky 400rwhp car like an S2000 with a blower and compare it to a 400rwhp stroker V8, the S2000 will loose on all counts. BUT there are plenty of other engines that are higher rev and still 400rwhp that can put that stroker to shame, even with much less engine torque.
Remember, rear wheel torque (the forces that accelerate you) are dictated by the engine HP at ANY vehicle speed.
mk
Now, I would hate to break it to you , but the stock street S2000s at the time attack at buttonwillow have dipped into the 1:57s on DOTs. to put this in perspective, all the hot BMW drivers and cars are not running this fast with the same HP. There is no stock BMW in the world with 240hp e36 that can run this fast. This is another argument.
But, you wanted street prepared S2000s competiting with E36s, at a technical track. Buttonwillow #13 is such a place and all the hot drivers of BMWs live there. Sofro, holder, warren, cervanetes, Vj, browning, etc. Go ask warren if he can run a 1:57 with even his Hp car. He cant and he has been back east and fights all the BMW battles out east when he can.
The point is, you said if you had to choose between 400hp cars and one had less torque than the other, you would choose the higher torque car. this is not going to guarantee you a faster car at any point on the race track.
sure, you could find some hp curves that make your point, BUT the point of this argument is that I can find some that make mine as well, meaning that 400hp and a higher or lower max torque, DOESNT gurantee better acceleration.
In comparing the 911s vs the vipers, ive seen this first hand. trust me, it can be on turns where grip and traction are not issues for either car.
All i need to do is find two hp curves , one at 400rwhp and the other at 400rwhp where the average HP is greater with the lower torque engine. this happens all the time. Sure, if you can find a peaky 400rwhp car like an S2000 with a blower and compare it to a 400rwhp stroker V8, the S2000 will loose on all counts. BUT there are plenty of other engines that are higher rev and still 400rwhp that can put that stroker to shame, even with much less engine torque.
Remember, rear wheel torque (the forces that accelerate you) are dictated by the engine HP at ANY vehicle speed.
mk
Oy vey. Mark, I simply cannot keep up with your volume of words while you try to dig yourself out of a hole about 911's being better off the corners than Vipers.
Go out to a technical track sometime in, say, a track-prepared E36 M3 (1996+) and a track-prepared first generation S2000. Both have 240hp. Get back to me on lap times and especially race results.
Again, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
Go out to a technical track sometime in, say, a track-prepared E36 M3 (1996+) and a track-prepared first generation S2000. Both have 240hp. Get back to me on lap times and especially race results.
Again, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
02-05-2009, 04:34 PM
#112
Greg and Mark, sorry if I didn't recognize that you've posted Area Under Curve. It's just so many posts now.
No doubt.
Gearbox mapping is done with HP curve and Rev Histogram to get the correct gear settings. It's even supported right out of the box into the MoTeC.
Respectfully, it's not possible to tell. It depends on the output curve, which must be quite different if they both produce same HP and different peak torque. Two so different engines exact same car. One will be a miss match with gearing anyway.
Probably the wisest words written in the whole thread...
Gearbox mapping is done with HP curve and Rev Histogram to get the correct gear settings. It's even supported right out of the box into the MoTeC.
Probably the wisest words written in the whole thread...
02-05-2009, 04:55 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Yes, we really dont want to enter the rat hole of comparing different cars. I used this example to make the point of that it takes HP to create rear wheel torque and this gives us acceleration . all things being equal. (ie weight, car, aero, driver, etc)
Put that GT3RS engine in the Viper, and use its gear box, and it could produce the exact same torque to the rear wheels at any speed. This is the point. Now, its not exactly the same, but it could be very easily. The point also is that if they were, the shape of the curves could be near the same and even though the porsche only has 275ftlbs of engine torque and the viper north of 400, the rear wheel torque and accelerative forces would be near identical at the CV joints!
We are talkng what is more important, HP or torque. its really about average hp, over an operational range, or HP-seconds, whatever.
True, generally, most torque monster engines will have more torque than HP numerically and will have a flatter hp curve. I would choose my power plant for a given HP any day of the week vs one that had a peaky hp curve. Thats NOT the point here. The point is there are plenty of 400rwhp, high reving engines that make more HP for more of the time than a 400rwhp engine that has a greater numerical torque value.
mk
Put that GT3RS engine in the Viper, and use its gear box, and it could produce the exact same torque to the rear wheels at any speed. This is the point. Now, its not exactly the same, but it could be very easily. The point also is that if they were, the shape of the curves could be near the same and even though the porsche only has 275ftlbs of engine torque and the viper north of 400, the rear wheel torque and accelerative forces would be near identical at the CV joints!
We are talkng what is more important, HP or torque. its really about average hp, over an operational range, or HP-seconds, whatever.
True, generally, most torque monster engines will have more torque than HP numerically and will have a flatter hp curve. I would choose my power plant for a given HP any day of the week vs one that had a peaky hp curve. Thats NOT the point here. The point is there are plenty of 400rwhp, high reving engines that make more HP for more of the time than a 400rwhp engine that has a greater numerical torque value.
mk
Mark,
I am really thinking there are NO good examples you can produce to get a true answer. Every race car out there is set up to produce the maximum possible benefit for the circumstances they have. Gearboxs are always set up to take advantage of the torque/hp of each car and tailored for each given track to produce the results needed. Want proof Mark, your Viper/Porsche scenario looks great on paper, except that in real life the Porsche produces more power due to the ram air airbox and intake,better traction due to the rear engine, and I am going to guess has a much better aero, how about the weight of the 2 cars, that factors also doesn't it ? So really we/you can not compare the two.
Please let me know if you come up with 2 truly equal scenarios that we can discuss.
I am really thinking there are NO good examples you can produce to get a true answer. Every race car out there is set up to produce the maximum possible benefit for the circumstances they have. Gearboxs are always set up to take advantage of the torque/hp of each car and tailored for each given track to produce the results needed. Want proof Mark, your Viper/Porsche scenario looks great on paper, except that in real life the Porsche produces more power due to the ram air airbox and intake,better traction due to the rear engine, and I am going to guess has a much better aero, how about the weight of the 2 cars, that factors also doesn't it ? So really we/you can not compare the two.
Please let me know if you come up with 2 truly equal scenarios that we can discuss.
02-05-2009, 04:57 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Mark, the exact opposite is true here, especially on tracks like MSR Cresson. So again, we're going to have to agree to disagree. And I assure you, the vehicle producing more torque when I get on the gas in a corner WILL get out of the corner faster, all other things being equal. If you wish to keep contradicting that, go ahead.
02-05-2009, 04:58 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
02-05-2009, 05:05 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
Depends.