Torque or HP on the road course????? Which is better?
02-05-2009, 06:28 PM
#151
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02-05-2009, 06:29 PM
#152
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Damn, you go and get all emo on us. 
02-05-2009, 06:34 PM
#154
Rennlist Member
VR, stop addressing my question as a footnote. Just answer the question
What the heck are you talking about. from your reponse to Greg, I think you are going back to different types of cars. we are talking same same same.
Yes, ive driven vipers, 550hp race cars , BMWS, S2000s a few others on the track. I know the ones im most comfortable racing but thats not the point. what can come off a turn better, car A or B. both 400rwhp, one with less torque than the other (numerically)? does it really matter if it has street tires, lightweight, etc. The only thing you would have a point with , would be longevity! Im all over the lower reving engines. not too low, like, 6500rpm engines. still have a scream, but not thumpers and not whinners like the acuras and hondas! (supercharged or not)
Mk
What the heck are you talking about. from your reponse to Greg, I think you are going back to different types of cars. we are talking same same same.
Yes, ive driven vipers, 550hp race cars , BMWS, S2000s a few others on the track. I know the ones im most comfortable racing but thats not the point. what can come off a turn better, car A or B. both 400rwhp, one with less torque than the other (numerically)? does it really matter if it has street tires, lightweight, etc. The only thing you would have a point with , would be longevity! Im all over the lower reving engines. not too low, like, 6500rpm engines. still have a scream, but not thumpers and not whinners like the acuras and hondas! (supercharged or not)
Mk
Greg, you cannot ignore all those other things. That was the point of the OP. Street car, street tires, road course, same HP, one car has markedly different TQ (and curves) than the other. Also, have you ever driven a Viper on track?
Mark, as I said, it is obvious you are taking it personally, and are starting to subtly delve into the multiple personal insults. Relax. Get over yourself.
Mark, as I said, it is obvious you are taking it personally, and are starting to subtly delve into the multiple personal insults. Relax. Get over yourself.
02-05-2009, 06:37 PM
#155
Rennlist Member
VR, stop addressing my question as a footnote. Just answer the question
What the heck are you talking about. from your reponse to Greg, I think you are going back to different types of cars. we are talking same same same.
Yes, ive driven vipers, 550hp race cars , BMWS, S2000s a few others on the track. I know the ones im most comfortable racing but thats not the point. what can come off a turn better, car A or B. both 400rwhp, one with less torque than the other (numerically)? does it really matter if it has street tires, lightweight, etc. The only thing you would have a point with , would be longevity! Im all over the lower reving engines. not too low, like, 6500rpm engines. still have a scream, but not thumpers and not whinners like the acuras and hondas! (supercharged or not)
Mk
What the heck are you talking about. from your reponse to Greg, I think you are going back to different types of cars. we are talking same same same.
Yes, ive driven vipers, 550hp race cars , BMWS, S2000s a few others on the track. I know the ones im most comfortable racing but thats not the point. what can come off a turn better, car A or B. both 400rwhp, one with less torque than the other (numerically)? does it really matter if it has street tires, lightweight, etc. The only thing you would have a point with , would be longevity! Im all over the lower reving engines. not too low, like, 6500rpm engines. still have a scream, but not thumpers and not whinners like the acuras and hondas! (supercharged or not)
Mk
Um...I have already answered the question, Mark, on page 1 of this thread.
02-05-2009, 06:37 PM
#156
Rennlist Member
I just thought its going even more vague for a point.
If VR doesnt answer, let me know what the point there was.
Like I said, VR will never answer a question. He still hasnt and this thing is 9 pages long now! Is he afraid to be exposed for not knowing this stuff, or does he have another ego agenda? I dont know. so far, ive been wrong, I dont get it, a mile off and all the other things he has said.
Mk
[QUOTE=Greg Smith;6255031
What's wrong with it?[/QUOTE]
If VR doesnt answer, let me know what the point there was.
Like I said, VR will never answer a question. He still hasnt and this thing is 9 pages long now! Is he afraid to be exposed for not knowing this stuff, or does he have another ego agenda? I dont know. so far, ive been wrong, I dont get it, a mile off and all the other things he has said.
Mk
[QUOTE=Greg Smith;6255031
What's wrong with it?[/QUOTE]
Last edited by mark kibort; 02-05-2009 at 08:36 PM.
02-05-2009, 06:49 PM
#157
Rennlist Member
Here is your Page 1 response. There is nothing about street tires, street car mentioned here only two 400hp cars with different torque values. (one high rev the other low rev)
The point is and always has been, that coming off a corner with a any car that has the same HP at that same speed will produce the exact same rear wheel torque values through the gears. we dont know enough with the guidlines set up here , to make a determination of which is better. RPMs high or low mean nothing. peak torque values are of little value too, as most of the time, we, as racers, never even operate at a peak torque value. Its HP at the rear wheels at any speed that matters and determines the acceleration rates you can achieve at any vehicle speed.
In other words, and the point of all this mess, both of the cars below could have the exact same shaped HP curve and would produce the same torque at the rear wheels at barber or RA at any turn.
nothing personal here, just simple newtonian phyisics
mk
The point is and always has been, that coming off a corner with a any car that has the same HP at that same speed will produce the exact same rear wheel torque values through the gears. we dont know enough with the guidlines set up here , to make a determination of which is better. RPMs high or low mean nothing. peak torque values are of little value too, as most of the time, we, as racers, never even operate at a peak torque value. Its HP at the rear wheels at any speed that matters and determines the acceleration rates you can achieve at any vehicle speed.
In other words, and the point of all this mess, both of the cars below could have the exact same shaped HP curve and would produce the same torque at the rear wheels at barber or RA at any turn.
nothing personal here, just simple newtonian phyisics
mk
Good question.
In your example:
Car A (supercharged)
400 hp 396 torque
Peak torque at 3800 rpm
Peak hp at 6000 rpm
Car B (N/A)
400 hp 300 torque
Peak torque at 6100 rpm
Peak hp at 8200 rpm
Both cars make same HP, but car A makes it much lower in the rev range, which is much more useful on a road course (IMO) especially a very technical one such as Barber. In addition, car A also makes peak torque (which is also a lot more than car B's) much MUCH lower in the revs, which is a lot more useful getting out of corners even on more open road courses such as Road Atlanta and VIR.
In your example:
Car A (supercharged)
400 hp 396 torque
Peak torque at 3800 rpm
Peak hp at 6000 rpm
Car B (N/A)
400 hp 300 torque
Peak torque at 6100 rpm
Peak hp at 8200 rpm
Both cars make same HP, but car A makes it much lower in the rev range, which is much more useful on a road course (IMO) especially a very technical one such as Barber. In addition, car A also makes peak torque (which is also a lot more than car B's) much MUCH lower in the revs, which is a lot more useful getting out of corners even on more open road courses such as Road Atlanta and VIR.
02-05-2009, 06:52 PM
#158
Rennlist Member
Like I said, VR will never answer a question. He still hasnt and this thing is 9 pages long now! Is he afraid to be exposed for not knowing this stuff, or does he have another ego ajenda? I dont know. so far, ive been wrong, I dont get it, a mile off and all the other things he has said.
Mk
Mk
Just curious Mark, what do you do for a living ?
02-05-2009, 07:00 PM
#159
Rennlist Member
02-05-2009, 07:03 PM
#160
Rennlist Member
Here is your Page 1 response. There is nothing about street tires, street car mentioned here only two 400hp cars with different torque values. (one high rev the other low rev)
The point is and always has been, that coming off a corner with a any car that has the same HP at that same speed will produce the exact same rear wheel torque values through the gears. we dont know enough with the guidlines set up here , to make a determination of which is better. RPMs high or low mean nothing. peak torque values are of little value too, as most of the time, we, as racers, never even operate at a peak torque value. Its HP at the rear wheels at any speed that matters and determines the acceleration rates you can achieve at any vehicle speed.
In other words, and the point of all this mess, both of the cars below could have the exact same shaped HP curve and would produce the same torque at the rear wheels at barber or RA at any turn.
nothing personal here, just simple newtonian phyisics
mk
The point is and always has been, that coming off a corner with a any car that has the same HP at that same speed will produce the exact same rear wheel torque values through the gears. we dont know enough with the guidlines set up here , to make a determination of which is better. RPMs high or low mean nothing. peak torque values are of little value too, as most of the time, we, as racers, never even operate at a peak torque value. Its HP at the rear wheels at any speed that matters and determines the acceleration rates you can achieve at any vehicle speed.
In other words, and the point of all this mess, both of the cars below could have the exact same shaped HP curve and would produce the same torque at the rear wheels at barber or RA at any turn.
nothing personal here, just simple newtonian phyisics
mk
And again, that's all great in an engineering 203 class...but in the real world (where the rest of us live) one car would come off the corners a bit better than the others.
02-05-2009, 07:06 PM
#161
Rennlist Member
02-05-2009, 07:11 PM
#162
Oh come on. Mark is pretty much spot on. One single call to any serious race engineer or to a motorsport department of a major brand and this is sorted out.
02-05-2009, 07:13 PM
#163
Three Wheelin'
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02-05-2009, 07:22 PM
#164
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Not sticking up for VR here, but Mark seems to have annoyed other posters on other boards before.
And actually, I would guess VR has also. Racecar drivers are so competitive...
And actually, I would guess VR has also. Racecar drivers are so competitive...