Veloce Raptor

I just watched the video, and this is exactly how it looked to me, too.

schwank

It certainly does look as if the guy on the outside realized he was running out of room and made a bit of a sharp turn in. He was likely unaware how much that black car had dove inside at the time.

Crazy looking track that's for sure. And I am very glad that our groups don't throw these 13's around up here. That to me is a racing incident... I would be pissed if anyone got put on probation for that. Little stuff happens. To me a 13 should occur when it was a plain as day f-up.

analogmike

+2.

At first watch I thought the outside guy hit you, the way you swerved to avoid him. then I saw that you actually hit the inside guy.

M758

Ok seems like most have posted their views on this so I will share my view point.

Firstly I do not have video in car so this is all from memory and viewing the video you have.

Ok my car (red/white) car was chasing the red car. Mine was abit faster, but still chasing the lead car. Going down the front straight I could get a bit of run on the red car and pass into turn 1 (where you turn off the banking). However he came back at me in turn 2 a decreasing radius corner take in 60 mph or so.

Anyway on this lap I was able to pull along side down the main straight and we side by side in turn 2 at 95 mph or something. The black car was on both of us but clearly behind. Knowing how he had sliced around me in this same spot last lap I tried hold a tight line in the braking zone between 1 and 2 along the wall. However momentum pulled me out away from the wall a bit.

At that time the black car stuffed it in tight between me and the wall. By the turn in point I was doing all I could to keep the car on a consistant line. I could not respond to the black car and pretty much had to give him room. As we rounded the corner the line tightens down to a shaper corner. In that spot on the track I am in 3rd at 4500 rpm neutral throttle with the car on the edge.

Now just after the wall on the inside goes away the course narrows down to what is really one car wide athough two car can just make it if the car on left gives room and the car on the right goes two wheels over curb on the right side.

Now with 3 wide there it became a problem. I was still side by side with red car on the outside and did not want to run him off track. Also being in the pass side I could not as easily judge the clearance between the two cars. So I attemped to stay tight to the inside black car. However slamming on the brakes there would send my spinning probably in to the red car. I did try to pull it back and tuck in but it did not happen that way.

Driving the car I felt like I ran out of room was either going to just make it or broadside the red car on my pass side or tap the black one on the drivers. In then end it was the driver's side. The good news was the place I tapped the black car alreay had some minor damage so this just added a little bit to spot that already needed some work.

So who's fault it is?
At first though I believe the black car took a big gamble as while there is space on the way in for 3 car itis really 1.5 cars wide on the way out and the inside car can get the door slammed shut hard. I also figured the red car should have gotten out of it and backed off. In the end looking at the video it seems like I got pinched between them and contact was almost ineveitable. It also looks like while I did a nice job defending my inside line in turn 1 & 2 vs the red car I totally failed to defend vs the black car. That left the door open and make it too tempting to make a move.

I also think my intention at the time was to tuck in behind the black car and I may have been a fraction early on the tuck in move and that may have been the contact. Hard to say for sure as even on the video it is hard to see the exact moment of impact as the contact was generally light enogth to not throw the black car off line.

So... Firsltly I appologized to the driver of the black car after the race. My fault or not I was not trying to have contact it just happened. At the same time I don't believe he expected contact either and was just trying to take advantage of the leaders battling. The good news was no 13/13 to any one and no hard feelings either.

Like I said in my first post I wonder how that would have been different in a 13/13 group where someone would have to have been given fault for it.

I could argue the black car failed to make safe pass on me as it was clear I was attempting pass another car at the same time. I could argue that I had not place to go and few options to avoid contact since my car was already at the limit of its grip and any radical move to avoid contat on the inside could have resulted in taking out the car on the outside. Now if I had pushed between the two cars I could that as my problem them.

Some have argued that the red car on the outside should have not turn in. Well he did not turn in persay, but his line that he was set-up on was naturally going to pinch me some. However I am sure he was surprised that the black car was inside both of us. Now maybe the red car should have thorw in the towel and backed off being on less than perfered line in turn 1, turn 2 and being very close to running out room for turn 3 (right hander curb).


Anyway thanks for the input.

mark kibort

Way to distill it down. Basically, you should have hit the outside car instead

mk

joseph mitro

agree it looked like a racing incident. your fault and the outside red car's fault if anything.

BMWCCA def would have given a penalty. hell, i got a penalty for hitting the wall by myself in the rain at TWS

mark kibort

BMWCCA gives 13/13 if any part of your car is damaged for hitting anything for any reason while on the track. Scuff an air dam near a track birm and you could get a 13/13.
mk

mark kibort

Ill be monday morning quarterback, because I think thats what you are asking for. I always like hearing opinions too so dont take it the wrong way.

You saw the guys coming hard on you tail into that turn. You should have drove narrow to protect your line, as your car was more than able to go that speed around the turn, as the car on the inside had no problem doing so. this way, you wouldnt have put you car in harms way with the guy making the outside move and shutting the door on your nose, so you would have to back out and turn slightly, hitting the car passing underneath you.

I had to watch it again, as it was bothering me, who's fault it really was. Trust me, we have all been there, and its good to have the other opnions help prevent this kind of minor incident again.

Drive faster and drive narrow when a equal or slightly faster car is trying to pass with other cars around. If you do this, they wont attemp the pass and if the crowd around you passes on the outside, you wont be there to hit anyone. Otherwise, point them by.

Like i said, i had one of those a few years ago and trust me, when i get in that same situaton, which happens occasionally, I take a different course of action.

mk

michael lang

In viewing the video at the 4:25 mark just at turn-in at the end of the wall, the flagger is waving the white/blue flag. Just at that moment the lead car (red 944) seems to have dived in too wide throwing him out of his usual line. As he tries to get back to his regular markers the black and the red/white 944's take advantage of his screw up. It just so happened that the black 944 was on the inside of the turn and was the one that was hit by the red/white 944. If the positions were reversed it would have been the other way around and the red/white 944 would have gotten the dent on the pass 1/4 panel. From this distance, it appears to me that the lead car (red 944) was teetering on the edge of being out of control and the only reason it was able to regain the lead was shear luck. Stuff like this happens every race weekend and really shouldn't be penalized in my opinion. I've seen so much worse at Summit Point. My hats off to Joe for appearing to remain calm and drive through the incident. I stopped watching after the 6:30 mark because it looked like the pack was getting too far away from the camera car, what were the race results?

rstrahota

I am not a steward either, but from what I saw, I would have to agree with Van. Contact could have been avoided by backing off, so the red and white car probably should have expected to get a 13 under pca rules. (but heh, thats why they give you two!)

Looks to me like the black car got hit in rear quarter, so he may have been able to claim not at fault.

It looked to me like the other red car was still the leader and really had no place to go and needed some racing room.

Just personal views from someone with no offical training from pca on how to apply the 13 (although I have collected some myself over the years).

This video really shows me why I like racing under the 13 rules - without that, my car would surely collect too many dents. I hate dents.
ds

M758

Mark,
Yeap looking at the video it really left the door open for the black car. I was fighting hard with red one and just left too much room. The normal line is to swing out and then cut back leaving the inside way open. That is the fast line and the inside line is the passing line. Some times you can defend on the fast line if you carry enough speed since you need to overslow for the inside line.

Still all race I could not seem to hold the tight inside line. I think alot of that had to do with taking a shallow line into turn 1 (where you pinch the wall come off the main straight).

So yes I argee looking back left the door open.

The other issue about that corner is need for one car to back out at some point. Two cars can run side by side, but eventually they need to fall in line to make it through the pinch point. Normall the inside car if side by side has the edge and the outside car gets forced off. However alot depends on position as a late pass can chop the inside car very very fast due to the natural line. Anyway in all my years at this track I had never been 3 wide there with all the cars fighting for position. I have been 3 wide with lap traffic, but never for position. So knowing who was going to yield and how much room there really existed was sort of a guess.

As for my take aways from this.
1) Defend the inside line - Leaving it open caused the gap to open and put me in bad spot.
2) If in the middle you can't be too nice. Meaning either hold position strongly or get the heck out. Go 1/2 way and you are probably hosed. I figure If I had just stated on I may have pushed the outside car off, but make it his choice and he had room to avoid contact. The other option was to get out of it fast before the doors closed.


Anyway thanks guys. This is one reason I don't like 13/13 rules. I am friends with both other racers and want to keep it that way. The fear of penalties could have made a 5 min chat after the race into a big ordeal.

Oh... The race...

As you can see I pass the black car later that lap and continued to chase the red car. We went on like this for the remainder of the race, but as lap traffic came I got shuffled back a few car lengths and had to play catch up. The race was 30 minutues and ran out of time to pass him later. I did get fast lap of the race early on. Sunday I passed him at the start and ran away. I finished some 14 seconds in front in a 40 minute race.