DrJupeman

+1

Larry Herman

Me 2

earlyapex

The fastest 996 GT3 driver in my area uses a stock suspension. He is very talented of course and gets much more out of the car than most of us.

Acropora

There are many many amateur racers better than me, but going to dual motons helped my times a lot over pss-9's. Being able to dial the compression separate from the rebound IME is really helpful.

multi21

Given this, the question is how much faster would this talented driver, but non pro, be on a 2 min. track with Motons, JRZ, or KW? It almost sounds like the age old question of how much faster is the MPSC vs. R6 vs. Nittos, etc.

333pg333

FWIW, I have KW custom 2 way race on my car. Granted it's not a GT3 but I'm only a few seconds behind these guys and that's with a pretty tame engine. There is a lot more to come in the incoming motor.
From what I can gather these or even the Variant 3 / Clubsport pack would suit the OP as one of his questions was how would it be to drive to and from the track. I can say that these are fantastic in that regard. You can soften them up for the road if you like depending on your local conditions, but one of the best aspects of the KWs is their high speed bypass valving. Essentially what it does is release pressure when you go over irregularities in the road surface but once back on the smooth stuff it's back to firm. I mean this happens in the blink of an eye, but you really feel like you can have your cake and eat it too. In the past suspension on a road/track car was always a compromise and many people wind up creating a car that you just don't want to drive on the street because to date you've been quite pleased with your original teeth! Now you can have a great suspension setup for both road and track. I can adj bump and rebound + height. The stock spring rates for a 951 are probably less than 200lb/in front and rear. Mine are now 616lb/in f and 708lb/in rear. I have virtually no rubber bushings left and ride around on 18" Toyo R888s. In other words this car should be pretty ugly on the street. It isn't. I love driving my car and the roads in Sydney are pretty ordinary for reference.
I'm sure the other brands you mention are very good too. I can only speak of my experience with the KWs. I would buy again if the need arises.
You can see them in action here. Following a 996tt w 500hp. The track was greasy and not fast, (many people were 1-3 seconds slower this day) yet I did 1 sec quicker than when I didn't have KWs and the track was faster that day.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JygHyzK4ZKc

wanna911

I can turn the ***** on my car without jacking, just lay on your back. Unless it's a slammed race car, you should be able to reach them. I'd just as soon put a extra shirt or towel down and reach than do all that jacking.

But the extenders do sound like a good option.

Agreed. That's a hard one to swallow. 2 seconds because of the dampers only(assuming all else was the same, alignment, spring rates, tires, driver, car, weight etc.) is going to be a hard one to justify being only in the dampers.

I've seen people initially get slower with motons as well. If you dont have a pro guy set them up, you could be chasing your tail for a long long time. JIC's are great for what they cost and simple and to the point.

Horizontally Opposed Man

Thanks for your help !!Boy Oran Park looks like HUGE FUN and you were clearly pressing very hard on the TT!So what kind event was that?Quite different from what we run here in the US .Lastly the KW's on your car you mentioned were "race " are they too firm for the street and are the Variant 3 type as firm in that mode you mentioned for smooth "track like " settings?Thanks HOM

333pg333

Hey Hom,

Yes Oran Pk is a fun track although it's due to be redeveloped into housing in a year or two so the condition is not getting any better unfortunately. The event was a bit of a one off. We normally 'race' in timed events in single file. What I mean is that it is a Porsche club event and competition. We have a yearly championship so it's not just your type of DE event. In the video they lined us up against the guy closest to us in previous times of the day and you could choose to drag off the line and race him for those 5 sprint laps, or hang back and do your own thing. I didn't see anyone doing their own thing. The guy in the TT was new and he said was having issues with his right rear shock. I couldn't believe how he held on without spinning, but that's modern electro managed suspension and 4wd for you. .

My KWs are the next level up from the off the shelf Variant versions. They have more adjustability and they make them to you and your cars needs. As I said, I have no issues driving my car on our streets but my standard sedan feels like a cushion by comparison. I know of plenty of guys racing on the Variant 3 versions though, and now there is a Clubsport which might fall inbetween these choices. They also have a version that lifts the front end of your car up when going up driveways etc. I'm guessing they're not cheap, but nor were mine. I'd check out the brand though. They are highly regarded in other parts of the world.
Good luck.

ps...As for shocks giving you 2 seconds quicker around a track as mentioned above, that is about what I got in improvement when I first changed out mine to the KWs but I had MO30 stuff in there previously so perhaps not a fair comparison.

Horizontally Opposed Man

Yes 333spg333 Thanks for the info too bad about the housing development !The TT was really out of shape but as you said the 4wd is very forgiving .I am going to find out more regarding the KW products cheers HOM

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Great thread,...

You've asked a host of interesting questions and some answers are naturally, somewhat subjective, based on individual priorities. I would simply offer a personal perspective.

Considering the whole range of shocks made for these cars (Moton, JRZ, JIC-Cross, KW, Ohlin, Penske), some of these have narrower valving ranges than others requiring changing the valving stack to get the adjusters to work with the spring rates. Some shocks have valving thats better matched to the unique weight distribution and handling of our cars. Many of them differ in valving designs, too.

IMHO, the "best" shocks offer:

1) Performance: this requires a valving package that works on a specific model of car and is a direct result of hundreds of hours of on-track testing and development on each marque & model. Valving resolution must be appropriate for the application and range of spring rates in use. Remote-reservior shocks don't fade very much if the cannisters are mounted properly and "drift" is NOT a factor for a well-made shock.

2) Quality. Shocks need to be both durable & reliable ensuring good service life and no failures at an event, barring an accident.

3) Technical Support. This is what really separates the various ones. The manufacturer MUST support the product by offering parts and repair-rebuild services to their vendors and end users. The best ones have overnight parts service, timely repair service as needed, and reasonable overhaul services. When you need a part or replacement shock, no delay can be tolerated and few makers shine in that regard. Some shock vendors do not stock parts and some importers do not carry replacement shocks, making one wait a long time when there is a problem.

Suspension tuning is done with shocks (bump & rebound), swaybars, alignment settings and tire pressures as long as the correct spring rates were chosen to begin with.

Several comments were made about actually going slower with a high-end shock package. IMHO, its simply irresponsible for a vendor to provide such a package of shocks AND springs without all pertinent shock settings to match. Doing such a thing does an incredible disservice to the racer and is akin to handing an Uzi to a 5 yr old.

The vendor should work with the customer to provide the correct spring rates as part of the shock package, all initial shock settings, and any other assistance to get the car setup properly. Further, the vendor should work with and consult with his customer for any additional tuning assistance until the driver is familair with how they work and what the adjusters do for handling. Given that very few drivers are alos race engineers, its imperative that after-sales support is there so the investment's capabilities are realized.

My experience shows that a properly configured/adjusted set of Motons with the proper springs is worth a 2-5 sec/lap improvement at most tracks over the best custom-valved Bilsteins and the same improvements pretty much apply for JRZ's. I have not use KW's yet so I have no first-hand experience with them.

Hope this helps,

ninjabones

I agree about the not needing to jack the car to access the front ***** on the JIC units. My car is slammed pretty low (below RS ride height) and I can get to the front ***** relatively easily as long as I turn the wheel to access each side. I can get all four corners adjusted in a minute or two (although I can't remember the last time I actually made an adjustment).

I can also attest the the customer service from JIC... very receptive to telephone inquiries about set-up. I also ran into an issue with one of the dampers (not due to material defect, but do to an accident) and they overnighted a new strut to me that saved a track weekend.

blakt out

Just want to give my perspective on this as well. For baseline of where "I am" in the process towards becoming a good driver (it's been mentioned as a factor here a bunch) I have put down a few 2:08 at VIR on R888s in DEs. This is only with my current suspension setup (Was also with a supercharger and at 3525lbs - big stereo ). Before the Motons, I had never done better than a 2:12, but I am a relatively new driver and think that experience is responsible for a couple of those seconds. I found a new line.

I have Moton Clubsports now. Before, I had PSS for PASM, and then PASM with H&R springs. The damping on the Motons is amazing. They just don't get unsettled. It's amazing. My car recently was in an Excellence Magazine (April 2009) shootout versus a car with PSS9s, and two other cars (don't remember what their suspension was) and the article largely focuses on my suspension being the reason mine won. They are fantastic.

I got them from GMG with their race valving and their spring set that is not full race but more for DEs. I'll change that when Synergy is done building my car. I've played with them some, and I love how I can tell a difference with each click.

For full disclosure, I also have GT3 control arms, adjustable toe links, adjustable sways, and a full Synergy Racing setup.

I hope this helps. I had these other suspension mods with the Bilstiens too. But with the Motons, it really livened up the car while settling it down too. I love them so much.

morefun

+ one on the JICs

QUOTE "Ninjabones - I can also attest the the customer service from JIC... very receptive to telephone inquiries about set-up. I also ran into an issue with one of the dampers (not due to material defect, but do to an accident) and they overnighted a new strut to me that saved a track weekend"

FWIW, JIC USA has rebuilding services and have been very reponsive to my inquiries as well.

Veloce Raptor

I am coming to this thread late (I think), but this point ^^^ is very valid.

To the OP, could you define getting your butt kicked? Where? Was it midcorner? Under braking? At corner exits? In sweepers? Tight stuff? IMHO, spending $8,000 to buy 1 second doesn't make much sense if your driving is leaving 3 seconds on the track.