jaje

I signed up my wife to her first DE ever (she's done a small autox thing) and I'll be there too. Wondering who else from Rennlist may make it so I can put some faces to names.

spieln

You know I will be there Joel. Cheryl has signed up too. BTW, they have rental helmets available for Novices if June needs one. What car is your wife going to run?

Just did the OVRPCA DE at Putnam last weekend. Great event. Fun track but took me awhile to get the hang of it. Hope to be faster next time.

jaje

We are both going to drive the WRX - shake it out and initiate it into our household. We are going to borrow someone's for the event and I got June a balaclava to keep helmet and head separate.

I haven't been to Putnam yet but sounds like a fun track - maybe next year.

Chads996

Sorry to ruin the party - I hated that track when I lived in STL. Word of the day - CONCRETE.

Putnam Park is still my favorite mid-west track. AND, the best place for newbs to run. Nothing to hit.

C.

911S3.6

Ditto Chad, GIR is not even listed as a track on a lot of sites, a total POS.
A NASCAR oval with a pathetic infield--- home of traffic jams.
There are no offs or fender benders, only totalled cars, walls and cyclone on both sides.
Go to Putnam, Autobahn, Hallet, Heartland Park......

jaje

I've seen plenty of "totaled' cars on road circuits as somehow cars still find those cement walls - and I've seen plenty of cars go off at Gateway and are running in the next session (as most of the high impact areas have tire walls and runoffs - such as Turn 1). I don't mind Gateway and it's not my favorite but it is a change of pace than your normal road track - something different. I won't call it a POS though - don't want myself to sound too overbearingly opinionated. If you really want to bash GIR get onto some bike racing forums and you'll find a big crowd who are scared to race there.

jaje

Mike (or Mark) Sigglekow went off in his Audi prepared GTS car at Putnam earlier this year and into the trees where he had an impromptu flying lesson - there's a major post on NASA boards about the crash - he was lucky to be alive but his car was completely totaled. All tracks can bite you and bite you badly.

Chads996

Granted...but most newbs won't be running Audi prepared GTS race cars. Putnam is one of the best tracks for newbies to cut their teeth. The lines between full on 10/10ths race drivers and the new guy is pretty wide.

Glad to hear he made it out ok. At what corner did he go off on? Trees, makes me think of the 4,5,6 complex in the back.

C.

Chads996

FWIW - I took a hiatus from DE/Track driving for approx 2-3 years. In 2005, I decided to get back into it and picked up a track prepped BMW E36 M3. A nice solid car with some very nice goodies to go fast.

I was living and working in STL at the time and my first track weekend was at GIR. On the Friday evening prior to my day out, an instructor went off rather badly on the infield portion of the course. Turn 5, 6 I believe (quick left than a hard right hander with a little "dip" coming into it). He did this while carrying some tremendous speed......straight into the single layered tire barrier / concrete wall. He was in a teal C4 Corvette that did have a roll-bar and T-Bar, seat, harnesses, etc. As a result of the crash, the car did not have a straight panel on it and was pretty much completely destroyed. He was air-lifted out with severe neck and back injuries.

That car sat parked, puking fluid next to me for the whole weekend. I don't think I have been as tentative on the track as I was that weekend. It was rather sobering.

So...with all this said, I like Putnam. Gateway has simply WAY to many areas that are a "gotcha" if you screw up.

Just my opinion. And while it may be rather strong...there is good reason.

C.

jaje

Here's the corner where Mark went off - and pics of the ensuing crash. I guess my point is there is no "safe" track and GIR has more walls close by but no matter wherever you are there is always a major danger - as is the fact of racing and high speed driving. With so many walls close by at GIR I'd expect most drivers to not try to push as hard versus other tracks.

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/view...=252095#252095

JR944

I also lived in STL for about 5 years and was CI for the region for a while. While Gateway sure wouldn't make any top ten list of quality tracks, it is an ok place to play and learn. In a DE environment, we always preach that drivers should not be at 10/10th's leaving some room for error. If that attitude is maintained, Gateway is just fine. The opportunity to eat Italian food on the hill afterwards is an added benefit!

Gateway sure does have stuff to hit, but I'd rate it as no more dangerous than a number of other tracks. Definitely less dangerous than Road Atlanta!

I agree that Putnam is a fantastic track for DE. It has a nice flow to it, great sight lines, good spectator viewing and huge room for run-off in most places. I call it the nerf track! The PCA regions that run events there are great too.

The crashed corvette was marginally prepared and driven by someone I probably would not have approved to instruct. As I recall, it had harnesses but factory seats. The driver was taken to the hospital by ambulance and did sustain a back injury from which he was expected to fully recover.

spieln

Yes I understand how GIR would not be anybodies favorite but it is all we have to work with here in STL. I have been doing DEs now for two years and I think this will be my 7th at GIR. Knock on wood, I have not seen a serious incident or even any serious dented sheet metal. I did see a blownup MR2 once though but that was not the tracks fault. I do know that they have happened but I think for that reason we all dial it back a little.

Driving at GIR still beats sitting at home racing on the X-box.

STLPCA

Chad
No flame intended, but your post is significantly incorrect. I'm a member of the STL-PCA's DE Committe and I was there:
1. The instructor's 'vette was not totaled in its impact into the tire wall and was not as badly damaged as you describe, although it was leaking coolant.
2. The driver suffered a cracked vertebrae (hardly "severe neck and back injuries"), was properly and professionally treated by the on site EMS crew and transported by ambulance to the hospital, recovered fully and is still tracking his car at Gateway. I suspect that with a HANS he would have had nothing more than soreness.
3. At the area of impact the tire wall is as far off the track as many areas of other regional tracks (e.g., Putnam, HPT and Blackhawk). Nothing unique to GIR there.

As a matter of fact, car damage at Gateway PCA and BMWCCA DEs is very rare and when it occurs is generally limited to repairable body damage from impact with tire walls or fencing, not concrete. Indeed, we seldom have 4 wheels off at our DEs, much less any reportable incidents.

Moreover, I can't recall ANY incident of car damage in the novice run group. Of the few incidents resulting in serious car damage, all but 1 that I can think of was in the advanced or instructor runs where the drivers exceeded their talent or judgment.

It's always important to know and respect the track you're running. Our DE program emphasizes that concept, stresses staying below 10/10ths in deference to our environment, is intolerant of safety violations and is stricter about hotdogging than most others I've seen. Every student has an assigned PCA trained National instructor, we're conservative about soloing, and actually believe our DEs are about Driver Education and not racing. We have excluded and will exclude reckless drivers. There's no problem at GIR if those principles are heeded.

The dangers are there for all to see and if avoiding potential problems means driving more conservatively, then that's what a prudent driver does. If they want to accept the possible consequences, they do so with eyes wide open. I've seen and heard of more carnage at other tracks than GIR.

GIR is a fine, easy to learn and safe track for a beginner. It's shortfalls are more for advanced drivers who want to push harder with impunity and seek more challenges. After several thousand miles at GIR running, at most, 9/10ths (I want to drive my DD home), I'm admittedly somewhat bored there, but it is 15 min from my home and remains loads of fun.

Chads996

I stand corrected on the accident I described. It still affected my weekend, and that was the point of the story.

However, I stand by my opinion of GIR. There was a time (see - days gone by) when that facility had a wonderful road course. Insert a redneck drag strip and a NASCRAP oval and KA-BLAM-O fun track gone. I lived in STL for 5 years. During which I participated with my BMW M3's. I do not like GIR. Simple as that. And that's MY personal opinion.

Putnam, Heartland park and AutoBahn CC are much, much better a driving experience, IMO.

Now with that said - THEY ARE ALL RACE TRACKS AND ACCIDENTS HAPPEN ON RACE TRACKS.

Drive fast, take chances and keep the shiny side up. (That's what I get for expressing an opinion...christ.)

C.

911S3.6

Chad,
you are preaching to deaf ears...I'm with you brother.

The old road course was half decent, but this track is a POS.
Granted, the point made that IT IS a good novice,beginner track, as it is not too fast, not too long, and
there are not to many turns to memorize in comparison to Autobahn (3.5 miles/23 turns).

Too say plenty of runoff and green space such as the case with HPT, Hallett, Putnam, Autobahn, VIR,
even Road America to an extent, is no more safer than concrete and cyclone on both sides of you as GIR, shows a lack of experience at multiple tracks.

I am a National PCA Instructor Corp member, BMWCCA Instructor, SCCA License holder, and I avoid GIR as if it didn't exist - regardless how close it is.
It's akin to saying I'll f*ck the fat chick with string worms because she's close and handy, but I really wanted the svelte model...LOL!

Have a ball you boys, and remember, the swine that brought you GIR, killed Mid-America Raceways in Wetzville, MO.----just ask Paul M. Newman.