Bob Rouleau

I got here late, but a few observations:

1) Properly done in a 911, turn 7 is entered with some throttle, it is more downhill than it looks and the back end will feel loose unless you transfer weight back there.

2) On the proper line, you can go full throttle well before the apex and stay flat all the way through - we did this together later in the event as I recall.

3) Bruce nailed it, youdid save it and had you simply gone straight on the grass without any braking you would have re-entered the track farther down the road. It was the steering correction that caused the spin.

4) You were lucky and you did the right thing with two feet in which prevented you from crossing and hitting the tire wall on the right side. Someone else did that at that event as you recall. That's the reason there are tires in front of the guard rail at the point .. it happens a lot.

Enjoyed my ride with you, sorry it was later in the event than I'd have liked. Still maintain my suggestion you get better tires

Gary R.

But are Hoosier's the best, and what wheels should he buy?

BostonDMD

Bruce, thank you.....
I am far from driving well or be race worthy, but I always make it a mission to get instructors like you and Bob R. to ride with me and try to learn as much as I can..........
I wish I could, I really love that track.......
Until next year.......

BostonDMD

Thanks Bob, I did improve on my 2nd and 3rd day especially after riding with you.......

I do need to get better tires, don't I?........

BostonDMD

Gary, you are lucky that I like you.......

z12358

I'm confused. I'm not a racer or an instructor (about to enter White at DE) but I've done a lot of winter driving in many RWD (rear wheel drive) cars (including russian Lada's) and to me "sliding straight" sounds like an oxymoron. The only way to safely GO straight is if you try everything NOT to slide, and "both feet in" will guarantee that you slide and lose control. Better to just maintain throttle (or depending on speed, just press the clutch to disengage the engine from the wheels) and disturb the car as little as possible so that the wheels keep rolling (not sliding) on top of the slippery surface. That will maximize the chances of it going straight. As speed is being scrubbed off, then you can start thinking about very smooth steering. Of course estimating lateral forces on the tires over slippery surface at speed is the trick here and it only comes with experience.

Since it's not advisable to have too many of these "experiences" , the best way to learn this is to take a RW car on an empty frozen parking lot in winter and practice. The more slippery surface at lower speeds will pretty accurately replicate a less lippery surface (grass, dirt) at higher speeds.

And yes, I have had this confirmed in practice, both on ice and on dirt.

Just my $0.02

Z.
06 Boxster S (stock)

Bull

Somebody has to.....

Gary R.

Now Bull, remember it was me that had the universal can opener that allowed us to drink all of NJCroc's beer at Lightning!

Bull

So, he likes you for your can opener????

Trust me, I have always outfitted every set of trailer keys with an opener, from my racing days on the west coast 35 years ago, through hydroplane racing, and up to now. A man must be prepared!

jaje

The Both Feet in is one of the first things Novices are taught if you cannot recover the car and can safely slide the direction the car wants to go (this is primarily when you don't think you can recover or go off the track). It's most important aspect is it makes the car predictable - no oversteer/understeer or tank slappers, etc. - just a straight 4 wheel slide whichever way the physics take the car and doesn't matter which direction the car is facing. This is not to be used on the street where speeds are slower or when on the street you get on ice as you will most likely have room and time to recover - this is only for high speed driving and when you take your first DE ask the instructor or the Chief instructor as to where you should use this. Take that DE and I bet you have the time of your life and will be back for more.

http://www.trackaddicts.net/index.ph...d=44&Itemid=72

RJay

I think you're talking about two different things. The point of the post you quote is largely around picking your spot. Old Isaac's laws. If you're spinning, when you put both feet in and lock up the wheels, you're going to continue in a straight line, like a rock out of sling. If the driver is astute enough, he can hit the pedals at just the right moment to avoid a tire wall and slide safely elsewhere instead.

In any case, when you hit grass, particularly when wet, you're sliding as there's an instantaneous loss of traction. Maintaining throttle for more than a brief moment, an abrupt lift or hitting brakes, etc isnt a good idea as the loss of traction means the wheels will either lock or the drive wheels will simply spin, never uniformly and likely you will induce a spin. Best to gently back down until the wheels slow enough to regain grip. Once the grip is back you can do something. There comes a point in nearly every driver's experience, be it on water, snow, ice, antifreeze, oil, what have you, when they are no longer drivers, but passengers. The most crucial thing, and its not always possible, is to allow the car to seek equilibrium on its own, which generally means doing nothing with the steering wheel or brakes and easing off the gas until you regain traction. Then you can take action.

z12358

jaje,
I've been doing DE's for two years -- currently driving in White run group. I'm familiar with the "both feet in" rule and agree it is the best solution when one loses control of the car (i.e. spinning). However, for keeping the car in a straight line on a surface with minimal grip (when off the track), with the hope of regaining control when speed decreases and traction comes back, I believe, it's better to do what RJay also described. In the case of the original poster's video, there was a point when driving off in a straight line would have been best (as others have suggested), once that chance was lost (car started spinning), THEN "both feet in" would have been best, no question.

As RJay suggested, looks like we're agreeing as we're talking about two different situations, each with it's own optimal solution.
Z.

jaje

z12358 - I think we are also of the same opinion - just different ways of stating it. I've been in plenty of slides and situations of loss of traction. I've been recently racing an H5 Honda that makes 90hp on a good day and for me to pass anyone it is in the twisties and often taking them in rather peculiar places by late braking and pressure and holding them off (hopefully) on the straights. This involves a lot taking lines that are not ideal and may get me into the marbles...but a very light car can do amazing things.

Chaos

I will say I never lost a DE so that means I won them all !

RedlineMan

Ummmm....

I think you disproved that "advice" quite convincingly. That is NOT a good place to lose it, and you were lucky. That turn nerves me out more than any other there. Yes, even 1-2-3! Frankly, I'm a bit surpised that ANYONE would go through there with anything less than 75% throttle... no matter where you turn in. I like it a bit later... like about 10 seconds?

What about this Tremblant Tactic? Stacy? Bob?

Anytime you spin, you have too much side load for the available grip. On the grass, that is magnified 100x. If you had gone COMPLETELY straight -with zero side load - you might have made it. The key to making that work with even more certainty would have been to brake all you could before you left the track surface.

Knowing that it is all wrong EARLY is a good skill to master.
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DOINK... That's what I get for not reading the whole thread!! I didn't think the local "shoes" would agree with the late throttle thing.