renvagn

Rjay great video and drive. You are really driving that thing in and out of the corners. I would venture to say the two GT-3's were driving 2-3/10 below what you had to do in keeping pace.

Al here is a question. Do you think guys coming from older cars with no electronic driver aids, who have to drive cleaner and harder in order to stay close to the newer cars, would be faster in the newer cars, compared to someone in a newer car, who never drove anything else?

C.J. Ichiban

austin, the blue 711 is the fast one I'm speaking of- the other ones aren't as well driven or prepped. I've only been driving for less than a year- so I haven't even had time to go to TWS yet, or done any pca races...so my small sample size is just the ~60 days I've been at MSR in it's various configurations- and literally I've only seen a few of the T-bar 911s.

they look like a ton of fun- but like sechsgang I'm all about using any learning method available (big on my AIM system in the mx5) in preferably modern cars (safer IMO).

A lot of being a competent wheelman is having a general mechanical knowledge of what happens, and the ability to feel the car responding to the road surface and your inputs- porsche makes really communicative cars and as soon as I started driving them, I've been learning them. It takes skill in any car to get the max out of that car, and that's what my goal is.

I'd be hesitant to seriously race in anything older than a 993... mostly because that's what I started in, but also because I take driving very seriously- all I know is that if I can constantly improve, I'll be really good in another 8 years or so (at age 35). I'm either gonna be a successful racer or not, and I look at driving the newer cars as a sink or swim type program- either I can take them to the edge and keep it shiny side up or I can't. This is why I went with Mx-5 cup over a spec boxster, or pca type 911...no part of a 10+ year old car appeals to me in at-limit driving scenarios.

you guys have been at this way longer than me, and you obviously know what you're talking about. It would take me at least a few hours in a tricky pre-G50 transmission 911 to feel comfortable, but I'm not gonna go buy one just to make sure I can drive it.

race911

Nothing tricky at all about a 915 (or 901) boxed, torsion bar car at any competent level of prep. They're totally tossable, and I'm really, really, really glad it was my intro to performance driving. Made the '82 RX7 showroom stocker I showed up to driver's school in '83 feel like a luxury barge.

And again I'll say that I'm not waxing nostalgic about how they "used to be". I'm really glad I have what I have now. (The '73 racer has been sitting in my backyard for four years, so it's part of the fleet but it really isn't.) But if financial disaster hit and I was down to one sports car, I'd gladly have that '73 and pound away with it.

RJay

And some of the 100 were actually Canadian! Seriously, though, thanks for the kind words!

Gary R.

By "fast older cars" do you mean older cars pushed to the limits or old turbos?

I assume the earlier reference..

mark kibort

street sport suspension same attachment points and bushings , thicker, but adjustable swaybar and larger tires. Less performance mods that the average highschool kid's car

mk

Greg Smith

Wow, you really live for the DE kill. You never miss an opportunity to point out how uber-fast you must be because of the cars you pass. I used to be much more critical of other peoples driving, but now I realize I was there at one point myself... and so were you. Everyone learns at their own pace, and some people will never get 'fast', but at least they're having fun. And maybe in a year that person will be flying past you. So what if you're faster than a GT3(etc) at a DE... it doesn't mean ****. So what if their car cost $100k, I bet I could build a faster car than yours with less money. All of this and a dollar will get you nothing.

/rant

mark kibort

The GTS times were a little slow from what they usually turn. I wonder what was happening. Jeff Gamroth was there! I wonder how his rebuild went of his car that got badly wrecked at our laguna race last season. He was very fast, but not in "spec" form at our race. I think they put on some pretty tough weight and power restrictions in the spec class. base on how he competed against me, i would have thought he would be in the 1:47 range pretty easily. But, Sears is an aquired taste too! . That car was beautifully built. (ITBs, Motec, etc)

EDIT: ahh, i remember, these guys were running the long turn 7, which bumps up the time by about 2 seconds.
So, Matt and the other fast guys were right on pace. no way they should have been running faster.

mk

hailwood

Rjay no problem i like giving props when they are due. hopefully once i upgrade from a track prepped street car to a real race car i will be right there with you. except for that foot to the floor turn 1 at tremblant. i just dont think i have the ***** for that one.

see you at nhms in aug.

RJay

There's ego on all sides everywhere, but I think perhaps you're missing the underlying truth. Its extremely troubling to some of us that the overall level of competence in the upper run groups is clearly on the wane. There are any number of reasons for this, but the principle one, IMO, is far too many people tracking quite expensive and very, very potent street cars who have not earned the rank of Black, and even in some cases Red, on the basis of skill, but rather because the car earned it for them.

Here in the NE, the GT3 is emblematic of this problem. I'll admit to a certain level of prejudice against the car, given how few I see in the hands of skilled drivers. But that is not really the point. How many people start their education by attempting to earn a PhD? It well may be their ultimate goal, but it is not the program to which they are initially admitted. To earn a degree, unless there are previously earned transferable credits, you pick your major and begin at the beginning. Certainly a PhD is not required to graduate to a GT3, but it sure seems to me that you need to have an associate degree from a reputable community college at least. Without that, unless the student is truly gifted, most will utterly fail to absorb the fundamentals of driving at the limit. By skipping the core curriculum and diving straight into the more advanced material, they fail to lay the necessary foundations for mastery of the art. A few might eventually get it, but it will be a long and expensive set of lessons.

When I entered school, I choose to pursue a degree at Vic Elford U. So predictably, I met and married a 1970 911T RS clone with a 2.5, a mere slip of a thing that over the years has filled out a bit and grown hips. While it may not have started this way, today she is my partner, not my dominatrix and whole heartedly supports me in my pursuit of enlightenment. There have been moments when I've lusted for a younger, sexier partner, but whenever this thought occurs to me, I try to recall all the guys I've seen arguing with their glitzy trophy wives all the way around the track, lap after lap. Then I remember just how lucky I was to have chosen the right girl.

hacker-pschorr

Sounds more like a problem with people in the wrong run group.

Some organizations do a terrible job keeping an eye on who is in what group.

Streak

RJay,

What you say has merit. Unfortunately for GT3 drivers, they have to really earn their respect back today. I think that maybe a little unfair if you look at it this way:

Everyone has to start somewhere. If a guy buys a GT3 and begins his DE career he's going to be as slow as everyone else in the green group. Just because he's in a GT3 doesn't mean he's going to skip yellow and blue and go to white. We might be too quick to judge the high HP crowd. There are plenty of Boxster and 944 drivers out there who's nimble, balanced machines have kept them out of trouble as well (ask me how I know). Those guys slip under the ridicule radar because the cars aren't as flashy nor as fast nor do they come with the expectations of the GT3.

I know a few GT3 guys who can really drive them but they are in white or higher groups. Part of the issue is the sheer number of GT3 types that are showing up at the track putting a spotlight on them. I've seen just as many non-GT3's drive with less than Vic level skill.

In 1986, I would have been that rich guy in the ubercar that all the 914 drivers would lambaste if I didn't whip them my first day on the track. Today, it's the GT3.

I do agree that older cars will teach you the art of real driving sooner due to the lack of electronic aides, primitive suspensions, lack of horsepower etc, but in 20 years, if we're alive, we'll be nostalgic for the GT3 and how primitive it will be.

To the OP. Yes, you can have huge fun in an older car.

sjanes

well, before we start jumping all over the GT-3 drivers, I think it's important to remember that this is DE, and some people don't even try to drive "at the limit". They are very aware of the cost of their car and drive with something in reserve. Not everyone in DE is going for the fastest lap.

earlyapex

Nothing against "new" car drivers. The water pumpers are very nice cars and fun to drive on the race track. They are insanely fast and benefit from years of Porsche development. It's fun stick an elbow in my water pumper friends' ribs every once in a while. It's my way of making up for the straight line speed differential that I must claw back on the turns.

RJay

I'm not sticking it to drivers of modern cars, I own and drive one on occasion, see my sig. When I do, on street tires mind you, I more than hold my own. I'm simply making an observation having owned and tracked both, that if you are focused on trying to improve your skill level, starting in a heavy powerful car is absolutely a hindrance. It is far harder to judge the proper braking points and entry speeds of a corner when braking 3200#s from a 140 than it is 2400#s from 115. If performance driving is about developing skills in the service of precision and consistency, as the cars capabilities increase, things get far more difficult. Starting with more capability means more to overcome.

Do pros start in F1? Or do they move progressively up from karts to formula Renault, F3, GP2 and then only if they've been good enough to graduate from each level, ultimately into the big show. At each progression up the ladder, the technology HP and sophistication takes a significant jump. I fail to see how you can come to any other conclusion than that amatuers who are interested in improving, not toodling around, but truly learning how to drive, do best when they are subject to the same climb up the performance ladder as the pros. Early 911s are quite a challenge to drive well, but not so fast that they prevent you from learning how. Thats why IMO, they make an excellent platform on which to start, far better than the modern cars.