vir fun: south bend screwup
#61
Drifting
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Having backed a car or two into a wall, I only speak out of humble experience. Luckily, experience really does work...I haven't found myself behind the car in a long time. (knock on wood).
#62
If nothing else, you have to give Gums credit for speaking the truth. Now Gums, if you had backed up your cold statements of fact by offering the corrective theory and technique to avoid those little moments, you might have saved your posts from seeming quite so acerbic. One might wonder if you are as flinty from the right seat as you are here, and if that might be the proper style for most students? I'd like to think that you would not be so stingy with your knowledge when it really counts, at speed, in real time. So... why not here?
When all is said and done, Frank's (and the other points) raised here are well-taken and undoubtedly 100% well-intended (except, maybe, for mine).
Ciao.
#63
Rennlist Member
Hi all.....greetings from WI.
I just joined Rennlist and was cruising the various forums when I came across this thread. I actually enjoyed }{'s catch, as I've been in similar situations and believe his quick reactions and fast hand saved his *** here.
**** statement of "the only difference between a spin and a crash is an impact" and flatsics's "I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out." .........jesus guys......what condescending, arrogant and ignorant statements.
If I came to my peers and said "hey, check out my screw up", come back 1/2 a day later and read this, I wouldn't post again. Who would want to be a part of a community of arrogant ******.
I commend } { for keeping a stiff lip and not telling you guys to go fuch yourselves.
Maybe YOU all should check yourselves before YOU wreck yourselves.
You guys probably won't be seing much of me around here. Peas from WI.
I just joined Rennlist and was cruising the various forums when I came across this thread. I actually enjoyed }{'s catch, as I've been in similar situations and believe his quick reactions and fast hand saved his *** here.
**** statement of "the only difference between a spin and a crash is an impact" and flatsics's "I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out." .........jesus guys......what condescending, arrogant and ignorant statements.
If I came to my peers and said "hey, check out my screw up", come back 1/2 a day later and read this, I wouldn't post again. Who would want to be a part of a community of arrogant ******.
I commend } { for keeping a stiff lip and not telling you guys to go fuch yourselves.
Maybe YOU all should check yourselves before YOU wreck yourselves.
You guys probably won't be seing much of me around here. Peas from WI.
#64
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It never occured to me that you could not handle these online volleys. Neither did it impress me that you or anyone esle should have to.
How bout this idea? How bout you give yourself a tune-up. You don't need any instructors or nuthin fancy like that. Now, I don't know what kind of 911 you drive, or what kind of setup you have even, but all you really need to get yourself right in sync is a set of slippery tires.
I have spoken many times about my old ancient Yoko 008Rs that I pull out from time to time to tune up my reflexes. These tires are like any Yok in that they are extremely communicative, and they stick surprisingly well for being at LEAST 10 years old. But... they do have their limits, and that is the key.
I can drive at a pretty good clip, and then they comfortably tap me on the forehead and say we are going to start sliding now. When I get the feel for them again, I can go sailing into corners fairly quickly and play the grip and slide like a fiddle becasue it is coming at a fairly low threshold. That is the key. Low threshold of fear = good lesson learned instead of tip toeing around in terror, or so much grip that you can't access the limit until it JUMPS on you.
RedlineMan's tip for success; Crappy Tires!
#65
I hear what you are saying TD and I agree that it's much better to be proactive then reactive but doesn't "knowing what the car is going to do before it does it" require 'feel' as well? Specifically, you have to have a feel for the dynamic loading on each corner of the car.
I could post lots of screw-ups but most of them would be really boring since they just show me being slow but here's one in turn two at VIR.
http://sbelles.com/Porsche/VIRTurn2bobble.wmv
Yes, I saw it coming but that didn't stop me.
I could post lots of screw-ups but most of them would be really boring since they just show me being slow but here's one in turn two at VIR.
http://sbelles.com/Porsche/VIRTurn2bobble.wmv
Yes, I saw it coming but that didn't stop me.
I wish I had learned this before my wreck. I am nearly positive I would not have wrecked if I had been thinking about driving in this manner. When I wrecked, the hairs on the back of my neck went up the very moment I knew there potentially could be a problem, which was before I reached the apex and started to drift. My reaction, and it was a reaction, was to tune in intensely to what my car was doing. While my car was sliding neutrally, I did nothing . . . intentionally. Afterall, I was in a neutral drift. As soon as I felt the rear of the car start to come around, I opened the wheel aggressively. The Problem was that, as I did not know at the time, it was already too late to save the car when I started opening the wheel, despite the fact that the car rotated very, very slowly. I have never felt something so sickening as banging against the steering lock as I continued to rotate every so slowly into the wall at 89 mph.
If I had known then what I know now, I would have opened the wheel well before the car started to rotate. I would have acted to prevent my car from developing unwanted oversteer rather than waiting to "react" once I "felt" the car start to rotate. Now, the problem likely would not have developed at all unless I made a mistake, which is always possible.
Here is a clip of me making an error after learning an expensive, humiliating and dangerous lesson. I still made a mistake, but I was able to stay on the track by predicting the consequences of my mistake rather than waiting to react to the behavior of my car.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...18686626720996
P.S. I do not view this as a great save. Rather, I saved this video so that I could remember my errors for trailbraking, and I chose to share it so other could learn from my errors (and see that most of us enter T1 far slower than is possible).
#66
I've gotta back up some of these guys...you can't post a video and not expect constructive criticism. I hesitated to post my criticism in my first post because I'm a bit of an outsider around here. But, what these guys are saying is true...it's a not a great save.
In all of the videos posted, the main theme is that of a driver who is way behind the car. The reason many great drivers don't have tank slappers and spins is because they react to the tail stepping out before it ever steps out. It takes a lot of seat time to develop that feel. Often, a really great save isn't even seen from the outside because it's nothing more than a 20 degree flick of the steering wheel in one direction by the driver...that's the reason some of the best drivers don't have the "quiet" hands that seem to be the goal at a DE. If you're really working a car on the limit, you can't afford to have quiet hands because you've got to anticipate and respond to every little grip change caused by every little pebble, pavement change, and alignment change as you negotiate a turn. When you don't react in time, you end up chasing the car and trying to catch up...just like the hands in the videos posted above.
The key is to take the constructive and helpful criticism that is coming from experienced drivers and put it to use.
In all of the videos posted, the main theme is that of a driver who is way behind the car. The reason many great drivers don't have tank slappers and spins is because they react to the tail stepping out before it ever steps out. It takes a lot of seat time to develop that feel. Often, a really great save isn't even seen from the outside because it's nothing more than a 20 degree flick of the steering wheel in one direction by the driver...that's the reason some of the best drivers don't have the "quiet" hands that seem to be the goal at a DE. If you're really working a car on the limit, you can't afford to have quiet hands because you've got to anticipate and respond to every little grip change caused by every little pebble, pavement change, and alignment change as you negotiate a turn. When you don't react in time, you end up chasing the car and trying to catch up...just like the hands in the videos posted above.
The key is to take the constructive and helpful criticism that is coming from experienced drivers and put it to use.
#67
Hey }{;
It never occured to me that you could not handle these online volleys. Neither did it impress me that you or anyone esle should have to.
How bout this idea? How bout you give yourself a tune-up. You don't need any instructors or nuthin fancy like that. Now, I don't know what kind of 911 you drive, or what kind of setup you have even, but all you really need to get yourself right in sync is a set of slippery tires.
I have spoken many times about my old ancient Yoko 008Rs that I pull out from time to time to tune up my reflexes. These tires are like any Yok in that they are extremely communicative, and they stick surprisingly well for being at LEAST 10 years old. But... they do have their limits, and that is the key.
I can drive at a pretty good clip, and then they comfortably tap me on the forehead and say we are going to start sliding now. When I get the feel for them again, I can go sailing into corners fairly quickly and play the grip and slide like a fiddle becasue it is coming at a fairly low threshold. That is the key. Low threshold of fear = good lesson learned instead of tip toeing around in terror, or so much grip that you can't access the limit until it JUMPS on you.
RedlineMan's tip for success; Crappy Tires!
It never occured to me that you could not handle these online volleys. Neither did it impress me that you or anyone esle should have to.
How bout this idea? How bout you give yourself a tune-up. You don't need any instructors or nuthin fancy like that. Now, I don't know what kind of 911 you drive, or what kind of setup you have even, but all you really need to get yourself right in sync is a set of slippery tires.
I have spoken many times about my old ancient Yoko 008Rs that I pull out from time to time to tune up my reflexes. These tires are like any Yok in that they are extremely communicative, and they stick surprisingly well for being at LEAST 10 years old. But... they do have their limits, and that is the key.
I can drive at a pretty good clip, and then they comfortably tap me on the forehead and say we are going to start sliding now. When I get the feel for them again, I can go sailing into corners fairly quickly and play the grip and slide like a fiddle becasue it is coming at a fairly low threshold. That is the key. Low threshold of fear = good lesson learned instead of tip toeing around in terror, or so much grip that you can't access the limit until it JUMPS on you.
RedlineMan's tip for success; Crappy Tires!