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vir fun: south bend screwup

 
Old 03-21-2008, 01:04 AM
  #46  
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TD, nice to see you contributing and having time for the forum.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:47 AM
  #47  
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Hi all.....greetings from WI.

I just joined Rennlist and was cruising the various forums when I came across this thread. I actually enjoyed }{'s catch, as I've been in similar situations and believe his quick reactions and fast hand saved his *** here.

**** statement of "the only difference between a spin and a crash is an impact" and flatsics's "I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out." .........jesus guys......what condescending, arrogant and ignorant statements.

If I came to my peers and said "hey, check out my screw up", come back 1/2 a day later and read this, I wouldn't post again. Who would want to be a part of a community of arrogant ******.

I commend } { for keeping a stiff lip and not telling you guys to go fuch yourselves.

Maybe YOU all should check yourselves before YOU wreck yourselves.

You guys probably won't be seing much of me around here. Peas from WI.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:53 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by bobt993 View Post
TD, nice to see you contributing and having time for the forum.
Thanks Bob. Hope to see you soon.

This whole conversation caught my eye for numerous reasons, most of which would be obvious to the regulars around here. For example, it reminds me of what Tim O'Neal said to me while he was in the car with me as I drove during his Rally School. He saw me make a few good saves, and he asked me "You have a pretty good feel for the car, don't you?"

I said "Yes, I hope so."

He said "You drive by feel don't you."

I said "Yes, I try to."

He responded by yelling "STOP THAT" He went on to explain that you should never drive a car by feel. When you drive a car by feel you will be, by definition, always behind the car. You may be extremely good at it, but one day, it is going to bite you. What you really want to do is to drive the car in a way in which unwanted oversteer or understeer never develop in the first place (this coming from a rally driver mind you). You should know what the car is going to do before it does it and drive so that it never does the unintended thing in the first place.

Brilliant. That should be our goal.

Now, on a less serious note, you might find it amusing to know that I renamed Southbend for my own purposes. I call it Church (just like I call T10 at the Glen "Church"). Why? Because after a weekend at VIR I often find that I have prayed more there than in a month of Sundays (and I'm Catholic so that is really saying something).


P.S. Too bad I had not attended the Tim O'Neal Rally School before my infamous trip to the Glen. I wonder if that would have turned out differently?????
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:45 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Porsche Bob View Post
If I came to my peers and said "hey, check out my screw up", come back 1/2 a day later and read this, I wouldn't post again.
Interesting take on this Bob, especially for a newcomer (BTW welcome to our neck of the woods). I have to ask you though, if you did post a screwup, what commentary would you be looking for? Would you want a pat on the back because you luckily didn't wreck your car? Would you want people to praise you and your spin catching skills? Or would you want racers who are really good and really understand what happened to discuss it in the hopes of educating everyone and making us all a little bit more informed? Sometimes it can get a little rough, but I have never seen the intent be anything less than genuine. If you want to truely discuss racing in enlightened forum, then hang around and contribute. If you want people to blow smoke up your ***, I suggest 6SpeedOnLine.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman View Post
Interesting take on this Bob, especially for a newcomer (BTW welcome to our neck of the woods). I have to ask you though, if you did post a screwup, what commentary would you be looking for? Would you want a pat on the back because you luckily didn't wreck your car? Would you want people to praise you and your spin catching skills? Or would you want racers who are really good and really understand what happened to discuss it in the hopes of educating everyone and making us all a little bit more informed? Sometimes it can get a little rough, but I have never seen the intent be anything less than genuine. If you want to truely discuss racing in enlightened forum, then hang around and contribute. If you want people to blow smoke up your ***, I suggest 6SpeedOnLine.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:07 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman View Post
Interesting take on this Bob, especially for a newcomer (BTW welcome to our neck of the woods). I have to ask you though, if you did post a screwup, what commentary would you be looking for? Would you want a pat on the back because you luckily didn't wreck your car? Would you want people to praise you and your spin catching skills? Or would you want racers who are really good and really understand what happened to discuss it in the hopes of educating everyone and making us all a little bit more informed? Sometimes it can get a little rough, but I have never seen the intent be anything less than genuine. If you want to truely discuss racing in enlightened forum, then hang around and contribute. If you want people to blow smoke up your ***, I suggest 6SpeedOnLine.
+1
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:09 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Porsche Bob View Post
Hi all.....greetings from WI.

I just joined Rennlist and was cruising the various forums when I came across this thread. I actually enjoyed }{'s catch, as I've been in similar situations and believe his quick reactions and fast hand saved his *** here.

**** statement of "the only difference between a spin and a crash is an impact" and flatsics's "I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out." .........jesus guys......what condescending, arrogant and ignorant statements.

If I came to my peers and said "hey, check out my screw up", come back 1/2 a day later and read this, I wouldn't post again. Who would want to be a part of a community of arrogant ******.

I commend } { for keeping a stiff lip and not telling you guys to go fuch yourselves.

Maybe YOU all should check yourselves before YOU wreck yourselves.

You guys probably won't be seing much of me around here. Peas from WI.
That's too bab, Bob;

You come in, make one post, and decide it is not the place for you. That might make you appear a bit delicate, or quick to the draw. Sort of what TD was arguing against, eh? Snap judgements? NONE of the advice here is wrong, by the way. Whether you agree with the delivery or not, it is correct.The only people that are "incorrect" are those that think the driver made great saves in those clips. The driver certainly did not make anything worse, and did have some positive effect with his efforts, but they are not nearly saves. There's a far gereater percentage of luck at work there.

Everyone who had that reaction should then factor in what TD had to offer from Mr. O'Neal, and then ruminate on it for a while. I had never really quantified my thoughts on it as clearly as Mr. O'Neal, but now having read what he said, I have a description for my own driving. I've spun exactly Zero times in over 200 track days. Zero tank slapers, and only a handful of times have I had the tail jump out on me. I attribute it to not putting myself in that position. Anyone who is reading this and smirking that I must therefore be slow is free to join me for a session and make their own assessment.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you should not drive by feel, because feel is the foundational component to anticipation. Through feel and experience, you get to where you have a sense of what might occur. This is anticipation. Further, the thinking driver then dissects every oops and tries to find the inherent flaw within so as not to repeat it. Most times thier error is something that the driver has either entered into the mix, or failed to factor out. This is what Mr. O'Neal is driving at, as it were. Not putting yourself IN the situation where the oops is created.

Geeez... Too bad you're so quick to judge, Bob. You'll be missing out on the best forum on Rennlist. And after all, one man's condescension is another man's truth.

Last edited by RedlineMan; 03-21-2008 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:16 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC View Post
Thanks Bob. Hope to see you soon.

This whole conversation caught my eye for numerous reasons, most of which would be obvious to the regulars around here. For example, it reminds me of what Tim O'Neal said to me while he was in the car with me as I drove during his Rally School. He saw me make a few good saves, and he asked me "You have a pretty good feel for the car, don't you?"

I said "Yes, I hope so."

He said "You drive by feel don't you."

I said "Yes, I try to."

He responded by yelling "STOP THAT" He went on to explain that you should never drive a car by feel. When you drive a car by feel you will be, by definition, always behind the car. You may be extremely good at it, but one day, it is going to bite you. What you really want to do is to drive the car in a way in which unwanted oversteer or understeer never develop in the first place (this coming from a rally driver mind you). You should know what the car is going to do before it does it and drive so that it never does the unintended thing in the first place.

Brilliant. That should be our goal.

Now, on a less serious note, you might find it amusing to know that I renamed Southbend for my own purposes. I call it Church (just like I call T10 at the Glen "Church"). Why? Because after a weekend at VIR I often find that I have prayed more there than in a month of Sundays (and I'm Catholic so that is really saying something).


P.S. Too bad I had not attended the Tim O'Neal Rally School before my infamous trip to the Glen. I wonder if that would have turned out differently?????

I hear what you are saying TD and I agree that it's much better to be proactive then reactive but doesn't "knowing what the car is going to do before it does it" require 'feel' as well? Specifically, you have to have a feel for the dynamic loading on each corner of the car.

I could post lots of screw-ups but most of them would be really boring since they just show me being slow but here's one in turn two at VIR.

http://sbelles.com/Porsche/VIRTurn2bobble.wmv

Yes, I saw it coming but that didn't stop me.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:17 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan View Post
That's too bab, Bob;

You come in, make one post, and decide it is not the place for you. That might make you appear a bit delicate, or quick to the draw. Sort of what TD was arguing against, eh? Snap judgements? NONE of the advice here is wrong, by the way. Whether you agree with the delivery or not, it is correct.
The only people that are "incorrect" are those that think the driver made great saves in those clips. The driver certainly did not make anything worse, and did have some positive effect with his efforts, but they are not nearly saves. There's a far gereater percentage of luck at work there.

Everyone who had that reaction should then factor in what TD had to offer from Mr. O'Neal, and then ruminate on it for a while. I had never really quantified my thoughts on it as clearly as Mr. O'Neal, but now having read what he said, I have a description for my own driving. I've spun exactly Zero times in over 200 track days. Zero tank slapers, and only a handful of times have I had the tail jump out on me. I attribute it to not putting myself in that position. Anyone who is reading this and smirking that I must therefore be slow is free to join me for a session and make their own assessment.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you should not drive by feel, because feel is the foundational component to anticipation. Through feel and experience, you get to where you have a sense of what might occur. This is anticipation. Further, the thinking driver then dissects every oops and tries to find the inherent flaw within so as not to repeat it. Most times thierror is something that the driver has either entered into the mix, or failed to factor out. This is what Mr. O'Neal is driving at, as it were. Not putting yourself IN the situation where the oops is created.

Geeez... Too bad you're so quick to judge, Bob. You'll be missing out on the best forum on Rennlist.

Excellent, all drivers could learn a lot from what John, Larry and TD have to say here!!
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:50 AM
  #55  
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You know, I never did say that he is a lousy driver, nor did I ever pass judgement on who he is. My original comment was directed more at YOU guys for encouraging him and my commentary, as an instructor, was directed at you (us), the viewers of his clip. I applaud his posting it and looking for constructive criticism, but all he got back was a bunch of jibberish and reinforcment which will surely only expedite his trip into a wall. If you were in the car with him at the time I don't think you'd be so impressed or supportive. My guess is that it's posted for the purpose of teaching him something, and you guys are all telling him he was spot on. Big help, but I didn't quite see it that way.
And if you haven't seen postings of my errors and experiences, then you obviously don't get to read my race reports in PorscheForUs, among others.
Now, let's just put this one to rest and get on with the racing season.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:11 AM
  #56  
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I've gotta back up some of these guys...you can't post a video and not expect constructive criticism. I hesitated to post my criticism in my first post because I'm a bit of an outsider around here. But, what these guys are saying is true...it's a not a great save.

In all of the videos posted, the main theme is that of a driver who is way behind the car. The reason many great drivers don't have tank slappers and spins is because they react to the tail stepping out before it ever steps out. It takes a lot of seat time to develop that feel. Often, a really great save isn't even seen from the outside because it's nothing more than a 20 degree flick of the steering wheel in one direction by the driver...that's the reason some of the best drivers don't have the "quiet" hands that seem to be the goal at a DE. If you're really working a car on the limit, you can't afford to have quiet hands because you've got to anticipate and respond to every little grip change caused by every little pebble, pavement change, and alignment change as you negotiate a turn. When you don't react in time, you end up chasing the car and trying to catch up...just like the hands in the videos posted above.

The key is to take the constructive and helpful criticism that is coming from experienced drivers and put it to use.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan View Post
I'm sure that }{ did not expect to take a beating here, nor should he have.
this is the 2nd most important aspect to consider here. no one should view this as me taking a beating. i do not consider any of this a beating b/c my constitution is just a bit tougher than that. i'm the first to dish it out, (no, really!), and i'm fine w/ absorbing what's coming my way, especially when it's in the form of useful knowledge and observations. i don't know who were the last recipients of your collective advice, but no matter what the form it comes in, unlike them, i'm ok w/ it.

these are all mistakes, of course. that's the point of preserving them. if i had flawless lapping sessions and knew everything there is to know ab droving, i probably wouldn't even look at this forum. when my non-car friends see the clips, i get everything from 'wow' to 'cool', to 'you're a god'. utterly useless.

the MOST important aspect i take away is the commentary. it helps me figure out and eliminate the mistakes. some things i can figure out on my own, but others become clearer w/ your (collective) input. you guys do the job of filling in the gaps that i haven't realized.

i do understand the concept of not getting behind the car, this is why many of the (anticipated) opposite wheel flicks to catch it are not documented. i know when, i know why, and i continue. but every now and then i push more and more and that's when a mistake shows up. mistake in technique in a particular place, or a mistake in how i approached it mentally (ie: snoozed b/c of carelessnes? absentmindedness? who knows). what i do know is that it doesn't come up at 95%. it comes up at 98%+

would it help if i told you i have another one of these vids coming from earlier THAT SAME SESSION? well, i do. i *think* the mistake there is easier for me to figure out but i will still welcome the commentary.

one more thing,
while i do seem to have many such clips, insofar as 5 in approx 4-5 seasons can be considered 'many', i can assure you guys, they have never ever repeated in those same corners. which is, to me, a good thing as it shows what i learned and took away from each slapper.

the only concern is, there are approx 40-50 more corners in which i have to go through this, and that's just on the east coast!!
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:33 AM
  #58  
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I think this post brings up a really good chance to define a good "save". If you look at Leh's vids and see the car get loose, there is often one large wheel movement, throttle does not deviate and speed is neutral. I had a similar instant in Southbend last year with a big wheel correction, but I did not loose speed or track position. I also had an incident at the Glen in 9 where I was behind the car similar to post and kissed a tire wall. I was behind the car as TD stated.

So without splitting hairs what the experienced guys are trying to say is "don't do that! You were lucky and next time it will hurt." I think the other deduction has been " oh, I have done that too and not hit anything, it's cool driving on the edge".

Having experienced both staying ahead being behind while driving, I can say that the tough attitude is actually the best advice for someone working on getting faster. Egos repair easier than metal and limbs.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
You know, I never did say that he is a lousy driver, nor did I ever pass judgement on who he is. My original comment was directed more at YOU guys for encouraging him and my commentary, as an instructor, was directed at you (us), the viewers of his clip. I applaud his posting it and looking for constructive criticism, but all he got back was a bunch of jibberish and reinforcment which will surely only expedite his trip into a wall. If you were in the car with him at the time I don't think you'd be so impressed or supportive. My guess is that it's posted for the purpose of teaching him something, and you guys are all telling him he was spot on. Big help, but I didn't quite see it that way.
And if you haven't seen postings of my errors and experiences, then you obviously don't get to read my race reports in PorscheForUs, among others.
Now, let's just put this one to rest and get on with the racing season.
ah the joys of Internet communication. I agree with this post. If you had expressed yourself like this in the first post, I would not have jumped in. I am sure that H did not post to get praise, so if you were criticizing this moment only no worries. I just know that my decision to openly share my errors in the past has cost me personally, and I don't want that to happen to others, because it is wrong and short-sighted.

TD

PS. I never said nice save.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:39 AM
  #60  
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Hey Bryan;

If you did previously consider yourself an outsider, you need not any longer. That post cements you as a solid contributor, if nothing else in the past ever did, which is unlikely. Consider yourself officially IN! Now, get to work!

I too held back on direct criticism, prefering to be more cryptic. Perhaps that did no one any favors, as Gums rightly pointed out. If nothing else, you have to give Gums credit for speaking the truth. Now Gums, if you had backed up your cold statements of fact by offering the corrective theory and technique to avoid those little moments, you might have saved your posts from seeming quite so acerbic. One might wonder if you are as flinty from the right seat as you are here, and if that might be the proper style for most students? I'd like to think that you would not be so stingy with your knowledge when it really counts, at speed, in real time. So... why not here?

As I said previously, kernels of truth all around. Morsels of blame as well. Now, everyone grab a bit of their favored analgesic and let's get back to the task at hand; keeping a brother out of the rhubarb.
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