TD in DC

I have been to a few driving schools and spoken with a fair number of pros and excellent drivers about how to improve. I always ask a lot of questions (big surprise there, huh).

The one common theme that I have heard from a lot of the people with whom I have spoken is that the primary difference between good drivers and great drivers is self-confidence in your car control skills.

I think there are two distinct kinds of car control skills:

1) The ability to drive your car right at the limit lap after lap; and
2) The ability to save your car when you accidentally exceed the limit for whatever reason.

Although the two skills are related, they are NOT the same. It is much easier to develop the former skill, and much riskier to develop the latter, yet you need both if you are ever going to be really fast.

Seems to me that the only way to develop the latter skill is by practicing, which means that you need to exceed the limit intentionally.

This, in turn, is easy enough to do in low or medium speed turns that have enough run off room.

It is a far, far more difficult skill to learn in high speed turns, which arguably pay the biggest dividends in terms of overall lap times.

So, I have been thinking for some time how I can improve my confidence in the high speed turns (having shaken it a bit last year ).

Well, I am a fan of fifth gear, and I am frequently jealous when I see Clarkson and his cohorts drifting cars around their test track, like this:



I am jealous not only because I envy their jobs, but also because that track appears to be a great place to practice high speed turns without risk of hitting a barrier or going off asphalt.

So, my questions are:

1) Do you think it would be useful to find a place like that, mark off a high speed turn (i.e., 90 mph + ) and practice exceeding the limit/drifting around the turn?

2) if the answer to 1 is yes, then do you have any suggestions on how a group of people could set something like that up? Maybe rent an unused runway or airfield?

Any thoughts?

Gary R.

I have no idea, I can't stop watching your video...

racer

TD, I think this is why using Karts in the offseason is very beneficial. Besides the economics (cheap, can rent vs own etc), the dynamics are the same. They train your butt sensor, hands and feet to work together. I found after years of riding minibikes/motorcycles a disctinct benefit when I first learned to drive a car because I had already learned what it felt like to slide/drift. To have the rear end loose and regain control.

Also realize that the sensations to the driver are the same, whether it is an 80mph drift or a 40mph drift. One just may last longer. Anticipating and becoeing comfortable are the issues. Get to Allsport !

Veloce Raptor

Todd, that is a great idea.

An alternate idea: go to a REALLY fast track with high speed corners, such as Sebring or Road America, etc., and work one of these fast corners as a flagger for part of a DE weekend. I think you will be surprised at how much the better drivers drift their cars (maybe not as much as in your video) at the very utter edge of control. This realization may well help you to understand that it is not that big a leap as you think. It surely helped me!!!!!!

TD in DC

I love karting.

I think it teaches you very valuable skills.

I don't think it is the same as driving a car, and I don't think that the drifting a kart around Allsports is the same at all as learning to handle a car that gets out of shape at 100 plus mph.

In any event, next time you want to go to Allsports, just let me know . . .

By the way, I never pass up an opportunity to point out that I had a faster time on our very last race than Mark Lee and Jim Evans (forklift) ok, ok, so it was only one race of many, but still.

sechsgang

ya...lemme see you have the ***** to slide your car around a turn at 90 mph after going to a kart track...


I think the karting is great...but only to a certain degree...



I wish we had a place to experiment like that...and NO, tracks are generally NOT the answer as playing around walls and gravel and crap is never a great thing...

bobt993

TD, I did this last weekend at Summit. First in 37degs with rain on Hoosier wets. This is my first time getting to run the buggers although I have had them for awhile (for racing). I was running low 1:30s in the wet, very wet. I took Cervelli out with me, but there was not much he could show me in the conditions. I constantly drifted the car through T10 and pushed in T1 where it was safe.

When it dried up a bit, times dropped to 1:23.1 consistently and that is when Chris pushed me in T1 as you experienced with him as a coach. Eventually, I drove right off in T1 as I had pushed the early entry rotation to the nth degree. It was a predictable off and in a race would have lost maybe 2 seconds as I completed the corner in the dirt.

As far as a surface to push high speed cornering. An airport would work or an enormous parking lot. You could setup 3 turns: reducing radius, inc radius, and a left/right compromise ( or right/left). Not a bad idea. Add some wet traction into the mix and you have an added Oh sh*t factor. Advantage to the slippery surface would be more of scenario #2 you described and the speeds would be a little less.

BTW, Scenario #2 also happened alot at Summit this weekend. We had at least 8 cars off in T9 (and dented) as the track was treacherous at the exit. Our club has never had that many in a season at DE's to my knowledge. People were driving relatively slow in T9, but tracking waaaay to wide with the off-camber nature of the outside edge biting them. Had drovers been better conditioned for huge corrections, this could avoided half the cars hitting the tire barrier.

I have also done the skidpad control center at the Nurburgring. It is run by Volvo and includes a wet skidpad with water obstacles that jet up in front of you to avoid along with steel plates that rotate your car left or right when you drive over them. That was pretty effective as some corrections required nearly full lock to hold control.

TD in DC

I would love to get a group of locals together to rent out an unused airstrip or something similar . . .

All you would need is one turn set up with cones or tape . . .

You could even video and have a pro (or amatuer) coach watch . . .

amaist

Locally, part of the Mirabel airport is going to be used as a racetrack. It will not use the runways but there is still plenty of concrete left to drive on. I assume some of the corners will have close to limited runoff. Look for yourself http://www.circuiticar.com/

Newer F1 tracks with asphalt runoff are great for what you want to do. Maybe you should organize a Euro trip + track car rental. Paul Ricard circuit is redone like that. The surface off the track is more abrasive and the worst that can happen to you is some flat spotted tires.

BTW the Top Gear and Fifth Gear slides you see are done over many takes. They get it wrong more often than they get it right. But I do realize you don't want to do exactly the same showy slides but just learn more about driving at the limit.

VaSteve

Why couldn't you just do that at an Autocross? You don't *have* to follow the cones!

TD, I'm sure you have figured this out...do you have any idea the physical dimensions of the space needed? I might know the place to try it...since you'd be in a car, it would easy to escape when the 5-0 showed up.

TR6

This is a great thread. I'm trying to learn these skills too and I've thought about going to the local mall on a Sunday morning and doing some skidpad runs. It would be even better if the pavement was wet. But I'm concerned about what my explanation will be when the cops show up! I'd rather find a place with less chance of getting into legal trouble...

Does anyone know of a big open paved area in the Dallas/Fort Worth area with no light poles or curbs?

multi21

That was my thought when I read Todd's post. Obviously it has to be a large venue. Out here on the left coast we're able to use Qualcomm stadium where we've reached speeds in the triple digits. A lot of space to 4 wheel drift at high speeds and if you get it wrong, you only knock down a few cones. (That will buff right out)

Bull

DFW?

mrbill_fl

I have not gotten over to Ft myers for this autox, yet, but I hear it is the place to AutoX.

old airfield, and from what I hear they run 70-90mph 1min+ courses. sorry is too far for you TD...

http://www.gulfcoastautocrossers.com/


anyone have first hand experience with these guys?

trackjunky

+1 on DFW. Terminal E might be best.

Come on down to TWS and slide your bad self through turns 1 & 2. Heck, there are a few instructors that do that every DE. I usually see them on the curbing trying to come back on track at the exit of turn 2.

Seriously, the amount of slide needed is the real art to driving fast. Slide too much and you just cause heat and lose forward momentum. Don't slide enough and you get too much grip, chasis bind and leave a lot on the table.

Another thought is to run street tires and slide all over when you realize that you can no longer carry as much speed through the corners as you did with your R compound tires. (Ask me how I know this)