mitch236

I can't believe anyone thinks Mac deserves any sympathy. They clearly broke the rules and were punished. End of story.

Flying Finn

+1 and the fact that their drivers still have their points is wrong.

Geo

You know, I'm not necessarily a McLaren fan, but I think they have been railroaded. I think they got penalized because Ferrari whined so loudly and publicly. I don't believe that the management of McLaren was involved. I think the information passed on to the drivers was of little consequence. When JPM was questioned about the scandal he thought it was no big deal. He said that information is passed around all the time. His quote was that somebody always talks and that information is usually pretty well known.

Employees in the teams leave and bring information with them all the time. It has been well documented. The only thing shocking about this incident (to me) is the sheer volume of information and the fact that it was being passed along on a regular basis by a current member of the aggrieved team

To tell you the truth, I think Ferrari needs to look at their management structure. This is not the first time large amounts of technical data has been passed along. Remember the actions against two former employees who went to work for Toyota? Funny that Ferrari didn't go after Toyota's points. Of course there was little to gain for them then. I'm not condoning anything here, but I for sure think Ferrari has been negligent in their internal security. The fact that Stepney could access the kinds of data he did shocks me. I would think that only a VERY small group would have access to that large a scope of data. In F1, such data should be available only on a "need to know" basis.

Again, I believe this sort of thing goes on all the time in F1. Always has. Doesn't make it right, but IMHO in this case only the sheer amount and scope of information is shocking and that it was being passed on by a current team member.

multi21

JMP also said that McLaren went over the line with this one.

Stephney was a high ranking member of the Ferrari team, Chief Mechanic for several years and even a member of the Ferrari F1 team BEFORE M. Schumacher came on board in the 90's. I can only think of a handful of other individuals that would have access to that dossier in addition to Stepney.

Geo

I didn't catch that quote from JPM. Not disputing it, just didn't see it. What I saw was him basically saying it wasn't really a big deal what was passed along to the drivers (the only ones who received any info from Coughlin).

Even as Chief Mechanic, I cannot for the life of me understand why he would have access to technical drawings. It does NOT make sense to me. I don't see how he would have a need to know.

Flying Finn

There's a significant difference between people chatting over dinner etc. sharing general, not that detailed information than having almost 800 pages of classified information regarding the car & the strategies in your hand and also exact information during the race weekend when other team pits.

Geo

JPM was only speaking about the stuff that led specifically to the fine and that was the stuff that was shared with the drivers. JPM said that information (detailed) gets shared all the time. The only info that was proven to have gotten to anybody besides Coghlin (sp?) was the stuff given to the drivers.

There has been no proof that the dossier was ever shared with management at McLaren.

So, let us not forget who actually committed the dirty deeds here. It was one highly placed person at each team. There was no evidence given that the dossier was shared. The other info that was shared was probably not a concern because it is likely part of the relatively normal course of business for F1.

It's my opinion that the WMSC only did something because of the stink Ferrari made and it was a lynching due to public opinion.

I'm not saying it was OK for the two players involved to have shared the information that was shared. Let's get that straight. But, I think this was a lynching.

Personally, I think Ferrari should be highly embarrassed for their poor management. This is NOT the first time high level data has been shared outside. If I were on the board of Ferrari I'd be grilling management of the F1 team from the top down. Who knows, perhaps that is why Todt is rumored to be out of favor with the head of Fiat (can't remember his name at the moment). It would certainly lead me to wonder about his fitness for management. I'm still shocked about the scope and amount of data readily available to Stepney. Of course, I'm not in F1 so I may be missing why he had a need to know to have access to technical drawings and the scope of detailed information he had. You compartmentalize that info for damage control and it didn't happen. BTW, I'm not saying it's Ferrari's fault. Make no mistake about it. I'm not blaming the victim here. However, it seems to me they could have easily avoided or at least mitigated most of the damage.

M758

If you consider him a trusted and valueable part of the team then I would EXPECT him to have full access to what he needed techincally. Sharing of information from the engineers to the mechanics is key to translating good engineering in to a good car that can be maintained. The mechanics build the cars and need to set them up and serivce them. I will agree that a run of the mill low totem pole guy does not need all that, but the chief mechanic does need it. The suprizing part is not that Stepny had access, but that chose to give it all way and turn spy.

As for McLaren... Well they new quite clearly that the data they had was not just information you "overhear" or get in a "how are things going" conversation. They knew it was very detailed technical information and knew it came from an illicit source. They then clearly attempted to use this information to benefit McLaren.

Nano

It's not a question of management. You simply can't keep all the critical information secret to a few individuals. F1 is not a 1 man deal. How many people work in a F1 team... 500? 1000? How do you expect to achieve anything if they don't work together? Information needs to flow. Fact Ferrari is a world leader just makes it so much more valuable. I also would expect the chief mechanic to know about the car's details. I don't think cherry motors has issues with people trying to steal their stuff. That's why the one man story stealing Ferrari documents and not sharing it with anyone but his wife is absurd, and as a matter of fact has been proven to be false. Debating facts is futile.

If you are refering to the toyota deal. Those two individuals are currently in Jail.

FIAT's president is Luca di Montezemolo

Geo

Let's first address the issue of trust. "Trust me" is NOT a good management policy.

I admit I've never been on an F1 team so I don't know for sure one way or another whether Stepney should have had full access, but, in my career I'm responsible for protecting the company's assets. I would think that Stepney would have access to any information he needed on a need to know basis, but not ready access to all technical drawings and many of the other things he was rumored to have. You HAVE to have controls in place to control and mitigate damage. Anything less is malpractice. When that information is worth tens of millions of dollars in some cases, I'd be very very careful. Again, perhaps Stepney should have had full access to damned near anything he wanted, but as Chief Mechanic I'm surprised at some of the info he apparently had ready access to.

Yes, I'm referring to the Toyota deal. Are you sure they are in jail? In any event, if I were a member of the Ferrari board, I would not sleep well at night knowing they closed the barn door after the horse escaped. I'd want to know how the hell management had allowed such information to be shared so easily after already being burned once. It's NOT an unreasonable question and it would not be unreasonable to hold management's feet to the fire over it. They should be embarrassed at minimum.

I think some facts are being confused here. Coughlin did NOT steal Ferrari documents. Stepney did. Coughlin's possession was unauthorized and thus illegal, but he did NOT steal them. He received stolen property. That may seem like semantics, but it's accurate. As for what is absurd, I don't know about how other legal systems work, but absurdity is not proof. From what I read, the info passed to the drivers was passed along verbally by Stepney, not from the dossier. If sharing of that information verbally would cause one to be excluded from F1, I imagine much of the paddock would be empty. So let us not confuse facts.

Yes, Luca di Montezemolo, thanks. I can never remember his name.

multi21

George, I don't know if your interested in the details of the story or are following it casually, but the details are quite interesting if your an avid fan of F1. I believe Nano or someone else posted a link to the entire FIA ruling somewhere in this forum. Unfortunately I can't remember which one as there are several threads scattered around on this same subject and we seem to pick up on the one posted more recently. It's pretty good ready though

Geo

I am very interested, however I've been too busy lately to read ALL of the details. I've scanned through a lot of the FIA ruling and documents.

What I find terribly ironic is that the FIA themselves put classified Ferrari and McLaren information into the public domain when they released their documents initially. Perhaps Max should be fined $100MM?

Nano

I've always been of the idea the FIA should fine itself for incompetence, but that's another story.

Sorry, Mauro Iacconi ed Angelo Santini were found guilty first degree and sentenced to 1 year and 4 months, and 9 months respectively for industrial espionage. They are appealing and the sentence is suspended until next proceedings. Case is still open. As per usual, in Italy, it will take 10 years to get anywhere.

For the rest, pretty much everything has been discussed back and forth on this board, I haven't read any new argument, it's kind of gone into a loop now. There isn't really any new data or turns of event either, plus the threads are a mess, with double posts, double discussions, cross thread referecencing etc... As far as I am concerned the issue is over. The facts are Mclaren found guilty of 151 breach by WMSC. Fined 100M and constructor points cancelled, drivers free to race. Dennis admitted 151 was breached, won't appeal. Case closed.

the FIA transcripts are on FIA website if you are interested. Otherwise put it behind you, and enjoy the last races