Ferrari / aka team MS (SPOILER)
05-12-2002, 11:31 AM
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Ferrari / aka team MS (SPOILER)
If any of you watched the joke at the A1 ring today, what a sad day fo F1, an absolute farce !
Even a diehard Ferrari fan will be at a loss to explain this one.
Morons !
Even a diehard Ferrari fan will be at a loss to explain this one.
Morons !
05-12-2002, 11:57 AM
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My guess is it's in his contract.
Makes you wonder why Barichello re-upped.
So much for sport.
As a footnote, the "fix was in" in more ways than one.
I was watching the live updates on Formula One.com -- I don't have speedvision/nascarvision.
They immediately noted that the crowd booed Schumi when he got out of his car. Five minutes later that was deleted from the commentary.
M in C
(you may want to re-edit your headline to make it blind, and with the word "spoiler", for those who haven't seen the race yet. I learned the hard way it can ruin the result for people who have taped the race.)
Makes you wonder why Barichello re-upped.
So much for sport.
As a footnote, the "fix was in" in more ways than one.
I was watching the live updates on Formula One.com -- I don't have speedvision/nascarvision.
They immediately noted that the crowd booed Schumi when he got out of his car. Five minutes later that was deleted from the commentary.
M in C
(you may want to re-edit your headline to make it blind, and with the word "spoiler", for those who haven't seen the race yet. I learned the hard way it can ruin the result for people who have taped the race.)
05-12-2002, 03:55 PM
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Mike you need to get your cable company hooked up!
Shuey looked quite embarrassed by the whole affair. The booing, whistling, cat-calling was very clear at the finish - even over the whining V10s as they finished.
He put Rueben's on the podium and gave him the first place trophy. Ferrari wasn't up there to accept the manufactures trophy. Rueben's had a very dejected look on his face. He drove the wheels off that car. It's so hard to win an F1 race, I can't imagine leading the entire race to have to give it up at the finish.
During the post race interview Ruebens and Shuey were both being very PC...calling it the head of Ferrari's decision. Went on to say they've made a big investment in this program, and we would look foolish they'd look if they lost the title due to not following team orders.
Shuey looked quite embarrassed by the whole affair. The booing, whistling, cat-calling was very clear at the finish - even over the whining V10s as they finished.
He put Rueben's on the podium and gave him the first place trophy. Ferrari wasn't up there to accept the manufactures trophy. Rueben's had a very dejected look on his face. He drove the wheels off that car. It's so hard to win an F1 race, I can't imagine leading the entire race to have to give it up at the finish.
During the post race interview Ruebens and Shuey were both being very PC...calling it the head of Ferrari's decision. Went on to say they've made a big investment in this program, and we would look foolish they'd look if they lost the title due to not following team orders.
05-12-2002, 06:20 PM
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Ferrari has always been this way. I am huge Ferrari fan and I enjoy nothing better than a Ferrari 1-2, but I have to say it was somewhat disappointing and left a bad taste at the end. I do give credit to MS for being a class act about it. I also thought it interesting when MS said last year he was involved in the decision and that the championship was close but this year he did not think the championship was as close and he was not involved in the decision. It really makes you rethink about all that crap Jean Todt said last year how if Rubens had been in first he would not have had him pull over but that it was second place and the personal difference between 2nd and 3rd was not that big.
The really frustrating part is that it is not like Rubens lucked into being in the lead or that Michael had some type of pit problem or incident on the track that put him in second. Rubens just flat out owned the weekend, from practice qualifying he was the best including the race where he dominated. It is interesting becuase if not for the bad luck of Rubens this year he could be challenging for the championship. But Ferrari is the dominate team right now because they (their current team) show no mercy and want to win a championship and will do what it takes.
In contrast though, look compare this to the Prost/Senna years at McLaren when they battled every race for the win and the championship. I dislike Ron Dennis but at least he let the drivers decide the issues. And those few years where the McLaren chasis/Honda engine combination were just as dominating as Ferrari has been the last couple of years.
Aside from the outcome it was a very exciting race. Heidfield's slide into Sato was horrific. Thankfully Sato is alright. Can you imagine being Montoya and have the car just go right in front of you? For the competition factor of F1 you have to like the fact the the Honda teams found some speed and reliability to challenge Sauber, Renault and McLaren.
The really frustrating part is that it is not like Rubens lucked into being in the lead or that Michael had some type of pit problem or incident on the track that put him in second. Rubens just flat out owned the weekend, from practice qualifying he was the best including the race where he dominated. It is interesting becuase if not for the bad luck of Rubens this year he could be challenging for the championship. But Ferrari is the dominate team right now because they (their current team) show no mercy and want to win a championship and will do what it takes.
In contrast though, look compare this to the Prost/Senna years at McLaren when they battled every race for the win and the championship. I dislike Ron Dennis but at least he let the drivers decide the issues. And those few years where the McLaren chasis/Honda engine combination were just as dominating as Ferrari has been the last couple of years.
Aside from the outcome it was a very exciting race. Heidfield's slide into Sato was horrific. Thankfully Sato is alright. Can you imagine being Montoya and have the car just go right in front of you? For the competition factor of F1 you have to like the fact the the Honda teams found some speed and reliability to challenge Sauber, Renault and McLaren.
05-12-2002, 09:36 PM
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Hi MPM & bet
[quote] He put Rueben's on the podium and gave him the first place trophy. Ferrari wasn't up there to accept the manufactures trophy. Rueben's had a very dejected look on his face. He drove the wheels off that car. <hr></blockquote>
Glad to hear Schumi showed a little class on the podium.
I'll bet this will cause such a furor, that Ferrari will rethink the team orders thing, at least for situations like this.
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind the orders.
Either way, F gets the full Manufacturers points, and MS already has a commanding lead. I know there are a lot of races left, and big leads have all but evaporated in the past, but it will be terribly difficult to catch him.
And letting Rubens win (after dominating the weekend as you say, bet), would have been a nice seal to the new contract.
Ironically, wasn't this a track that supposedly did not favor the red cars?
M in C
[quote] He put Rueben's on the podium and gave him the first place trophy. Ferrari wasn't up there to accept the manufactures trophy. Rueben's had a very dejected look on his face. He drove the wheels off that car. <hr></blockquote>
Glad to hear Schumi showed a little class on the podium.
I'll bet this will cause such a furor, that Ferrari will rethink the team orders thing, at least for situations like this.
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind the orders.
Either way, F gets the full Manufacturers points, and MS already has a commanding lead. I know there are a lot of races left, and big leads have all but evaporated in the past, but it will be terribly difficult to catch him.
And letting Rubens win (after dominating the weekend as you say, bet), would have been a nice seal to the new contract.
Ironically, wasn't this a track that supposedly did not favor the red cars?
M in C
05-13-2002, 12:23 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>During the post race interview Ruebens and Shuey were both being very PC...calling it the head of Ferrari's decision. Went on to say they've made a big investment in this program, and we would look foolish they'd look if they lost the title due to not following team orders.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They look foolish anyway and completely unsporting.
I'm quite sure the commendatore wouldn't have stood for such a thing.
<strong>During the post race interview Ruebens and Shuey were both being very PC...calling it the head of Ferrari's decision. Went on to say they've made a big investment in this program, and we would look foolish they'd look if they lost the title due to not following team orders.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They look foolish anyway and completely unsporting.
I'm quite sure the commendatore wouldn't have stood for such a thing.
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05-13-2002, 09:31 AM
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Michael Schumacher should have told Ferrari where they could stick there orders. What would Ferrari do? Fire him? Doubt it. Lets face facts. Right now, Michael Schumacher IS Ferrari. He brought them back from the abyss. Ferrari's last championship before Schumacher's was 1979.
I'd be interested to know how much money was lost at the bookies because of this little stunt.
I'd be interested to know how much money was lost at the bookies because of this little stunt.
05-13-2002, 04:55 PM
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Well, Ferrari is being called to the carpet by the FIA. <a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=577&ncid=577&e=3&u=/nm/20020513/sp_nm/formulaone_ferrari_dc_4" target="_blank">FIA Summons Ferrari</a> While it may not be strictly illegal under the rules, I would bet that Ferrari gets the message that blatant manipulations like this are unacceptable <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
05-13-2002, 05:12 PM
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[from the 944 list]
Yesterday's events highlight the reasons why I'm no longer a F1 fan.
I recall 20 yrs ago when Gilles Villeneuve died at Zolder, that he had mentioned that the event before, he was so disillusioned when Didier Pironi, despite team orders to back-off and stay in 2nd (preserve cars and positions), overtook him anyway to win. He was so rattled by this he wasn't focused and this probably contributed to his lapse at the following event.
In those days Ferrari policy was, that whenever their cars came into a #1, #2 sequence, unless something went wrong, they were to remain that way to the flag <sigh>.
Meanwhile, the same way that Pironi disobeyed those team orders, so too could Schumacher have today. I also recall years later, Lauda's middle finger being pointed out of his Ferrari in refusal of similar passing orders and not letting his teammate by. I don't think superstar Schumacher would have risked losing his job if he'd have defied the orders and stayed back.
It's all disgusting and just reinforces why I won't even bother with my local GP next month (Montreal) - asides from the cost, lack
of passing, being treated like cattle... I could go on, and on.
I'm sorry, but F1 the quickly become the WWF of the racing world. The no-nothings still contend that it's real racing. It's a heartless, souless marketing exercise.
Too bad. I remeber when I was very little, my father would drag me up to Mt Tremblant, I was both terrified and thrilled watching these masters battle it out on the totally unforgiving track. We'd walk the pits, the driver's were human and approachable.
When my son is born, I'll take him to ALMS event, the spirt of racing seems to be still alive there.(at least somewhat)
Boy, I sound like an old man!
Yesterday's events highlight the reasons why I'm no longer a F1 fan.
I recall 20 yrs ago when Gilles Villeneuve died at Zolder, that he had mentioned that the event before, he was so disillusioned when Didier Pironi, despite team orders to back-off and stay in 2nd (preserve cars and positions), overtook him anyway to win. He was so rattled by this he wasn't focused and this probably contributed to his lapse at the following event.
In those days Ferrari policy was, that whenever their cars came into a #1, #2 sequence, unless something went wrong, they were to remain that way to the flag <sigh>.
Meanwhile, the same way that Pironi disobeyed those team orders, so too could Schumacher have today. I also recall years later, Lauda's middle finger being pointed out of his Ferrari in refusal of similar passing orders and not letting his teammate by. I don't think superstar Schumacher would have risked losing his job if he'd have defied the orders and stayed back.
It's all disgusting and just reinforces why I won't even bother with my local GP next month (Montreal) - asides from the cost, lack
of passing, being treated like cattle... I could go on, and on.
I'm sorry, but F1 the quickly become the WWF of the racing world. The no-nothings still contend that it's real racing. It's a heartless, souless marketing exercise.
Too bad. I remeber when I was very little, my father would drag me up to Mt Tremblant, I was both terrified and thrilled watching these masters battle it out on the totally unforgiving track. We'd walk the pits, the driver's were human and approachable.
When my son is born, I'll take him to ALMS event, the spirt of racing seems to be still alive there.(at least somewhat)
Boy, I sound like an old man!
05-13-2002, 07:15 PM
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Eventhough I don't agree with team orders, Ferrari are not the first ones (nor will be the last ones) to issue these. I don't know about Michael's job if he had "disobeyed" Jean Todt or whatever.
It is just a real shame that, Rubens having had such a phenomenal weekend and Michael being such a superb driver, the team had to go back to commercial decisions.
Michael is a champ no doubt but Rubens was superb in Austria. So much for Montoya, Raikonen, Ralf, Jenson and the rest. Like Rubens said, (freely quoted) I am not crying anymore, I am driving now and I'm committed.
Go to <a href="http://www.barrichello.com" target="_blank">www.barrichello.com</a> and read the interview.
Regarding Schumi following the orders,the British media wrote "Schumacher's reputation should not be tarnished by Sunday's events. He described the world champion's decision to hand Barrichello the trophy as "a noble gesture from a racer who understood that victories not earned are meaningless."
Lets hope, we get some real racing again. By the way, Villeneuve woke up!
It is just a real shame that, Rubens having had such a phenomenal weekend and Michael being such a superb driver, the team had to go back to commercial decisions.
Michael is a champ no doubt but Rubens was superb in Austria. So much for Montoya, Raikonen, Ralf, Jenson and the rest. Like Rubens said, (freely quoted) I am not crying anymore, I am driving now and I'm committed.
Go to <a href="http://www.barrichello.com" target="_blank">www.barrichello.com</a> and read the interview.
Regarding Schumi following the orders,the British media wrote "Schumacher's reputation should not be tarnished by Sunday's events. He described the world champion's decision to hand Barrichello the trophy as "a noble gesture from a racer who understood that victories not earned are meaningless."
Lets hope, we get some real racing again. By the way, Villeneuve woke up!
05-13-2002, 08:08 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Carrera51:
<strong>Michael Schumacher should have told Ferrari where they could stick there orders. What would Ferrari do? Fire him? Doubt it. Lets face facts. Right now, Michael Schumacher IS Ferrari. He brought them back from the abyss. Ferrari's last championship before Schumacher's was 1979.
I'd be interested to know how much money was lost at the bookies because of this little stunt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. Despite his protests that this finish was a result of "team orders", Michael is at least partially responsible. With his clout, he could have taken issue with the policy before the race, or simply have let Rubens cross the line first at the end. I truly believe that he could have done the right thing, and escaped unscathed. For heaven's sake, it's not like anyone will threaten him for the driver's championship (except maybe Rubens, I hope!
), since he had more points than Juan Pablo and Ralf combined going into the race. Not to mention, this was a huge personal achievement for Rubens - his only second F1 win since 1993.
Italy is the home of Machiavellian politics and long-standing, secretive, power-oriented institutions like the Vatican, so perhaps, this company decision is simply reflective of the culture?
With respect to the bookies, I read today that "SOS Italia", a consumer protection group, demanded that those who bet on Barichello be given their money back, but the country's bigger bookmakers balked, saying team orders have always been part of the sport.
<strong>Michael Schumacher should have told Ferrari where they could stick there orders. What would Ferrari do? Fire him? Doubt it. Lets face facts. Right now, Michael Schumacher IS Ferrari. He brought them back from the abyss. Ferrari's last championship before Schumacher's was 1979.
I'd be interested to know how much money was lost at the bookies because of this little stunt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. Despite his protests that this finish was a result of "team orders", Michael is at least partially responsible. With his clout, he could have taken issue with the policy before the race, or simply have let Rubens cross the line first at the end. I truly believe that he could have done the right thing, and escaped unscathed. For heaven's sake, it's not like anyone will threaten him for the driver's championship (except maybe Rubens, I hope!
), since he had more points than Juan Pablo and Ralf combined going into the race. Not to mention, this was a huge personal achievement for Rubens - his only second F1 win since 1993.Italy is the home of Machiavellian politics and long-standing, secretive, power-oriented institutions like the Vatican, so perhaps, this company decision is simply reflective of the culture?
With respect to the bookies, I read today that "SOS Italia", a consumer protection group, demanded that those who bet on Barichello be given their money back, but the country's bigger bookmakers balked, saying team orders have always been part of the sport.
05-13-2002, 10:20 PM
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Posted by Anir:
[quote]With respect to the bookies, I read today that "SOS Italia", a consumer protection group, demanded that those who bet on Barichello be given their money back, but the country's bigger bookmakers balked, saying team orders have always been part of the sport.<hr></blockquote>
I read today in AtlasF1 that the bookies had bowed to pressure and were going to pay Ruben's and Michael's bets so at least as far as the money goes there was enough of a public outcry.
Also Luca went on Italian TV defending his Company's actions right down the line. To me that's unheard of, the president of an high profile company defending what many thought to be the wrong decision, I guess the ex-Andersen PR guy got a job at ferrari.
M in C, thanks for the tip.
Jma
[quote]With respect to the bookies, I read today that "SOS Italia", a consumer protection group, demanded that those who bet on Barichello be given their money back, but the country's bigger bookmakers balked, saying team orders have always been part of the sport.<hr></blockquote>
I read today in AtlasF1 that the bookies had bowed to pressure and were going to pay Ruben's and Michael's bets so at least as far as the money goes there was enough of a public outcry.
Also Luca went on Italian TV defending his Company's actions right down the line. To me that's unheard of, the president of an high profile company defending what many thought to be the wrong decision, I guess the ex-Andersen PR guy got a job at ferrari.
M in C, thanks for the tip.
Jma
05-14-2002, 12:10 AM
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As a footnote:
If you want to take the time to show your dislike for such antics go here: <a href="http://www.petitiononline.com/ferrf1/petition.html" target="_blank">http://www.petitiononline.com/ferrf1/petition.html</a>
For whatever it might be worth...
If you want to take the time to show your dislike for such antics go here: <a href="http://www.petitiononline.com/ferrf1/petition.html" target="_blank">http://www.petitiononline.com/ferrf1/petition.html</a>
For whatever it might be worth...