Coleco

Hi guy's I just bought an 86 944 that I am slowly going to turn into an ITS/PCA(class ???) car for 02. The first thing on my list(too long) is suspension.
I was up on the H2O cooled section and asked if the early steel a-arms would fit my car and they said yes. I guess the 85.5 and 86 is basicly the same arm as the early steel arms just made of aluminum instead. Is this correct? The 87+ is a different story. This is the link if you want to read it http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/r...&f=15&t=000938


My plan is to get some used steel a-arms and put new ball joints and bushings. Good idea or bad idea? I don't care about the added unsprung weight, I would rather save the money. BTW are FABCAR type arms legal in ITS? I read the GCR and it doesn't look like they are.

Bushings: what should I do, I love the Racer's edge Spherical Bearing but @ $1300 I can only dream. What should I use OEM???

Sway bars: what's a good set up(F/R), turbo, aftermarket?

Shock/struts: again what's a good setup for ITS? Mild and Wild(willing to spend some $ but nothing outrages).

Spring/Torsion bars; what's a good set up?


I know you have to do testing to get the best answer to these questions, but I am just looking for a starting point. I will be going to the NER tracks(LRP, GLENN, NHIS). What kind of set up are you guy's running?
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Ahmet

See my reply at:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...ML/003894.html

You haven't responded there, so I'm curious as to what you think of all this, let us know.
Ahmet

Adam Richman

I'd pretty much agree with everything Ahmet says on the other post less the wheel size (tire selection in R-compound being the only issue there).

If you are going coil-overs, and don't care about getting to the track and back, I'd suggest somewhere around 650 fr/ 850 rr spring rates. I run 400# springs and I am lifting the inside tire off the ground through T11 and T14 at CMP (just found this out this past weekend) and I don't think you're going to want that. 650/850 might still be weak for ITS (??) but it should be a very aggressive starting point. I too wouldn't get all hung up on sway bars. I am running the later Turbo sways and don't think it is something I'll change until its the last thing that I can do.

Also on wheels, there is a trade off you should consider. If you go 16x8 all around, it would allow you to rotate your tires back to front (something I wish I could do to be honest). This will get you more events but may sacrifice rear grip.

On the struts/shocks, I would think that you'll need them (Koni) revalved for anything over 350 or so lbs. springrates.

The FABCAR arms I would "THINK" would be legal for ITS seeing as it would be a safety issue but I don't have a clue.

Another massive change is in your rollover protection. I'd say go welded (and go with DOM steel) as it will give you a very noticable rigidity increase as well as more security in the event of a roll (I think spec is .120 x 3/4 but again, not positive).

Lastly, I'd throw in a tower brace - should be a minimal expense and personally I thought that it did give me a tad more stiction up front.

I run pretty much what I said above. I will be up at Summit Point Sept 22 with NASA, is that in your territory?

Adam Richman

By the way, I should note: I don't run in ITS, I am not very down with the GCR as it pertains to ITS and I haven't done wheel to wheel (yet).

I am coming from Open Track experience and there are plenty of folks that have a lot more of it than me. I just jumped in there because it didn't look like you had gotten a lot of responses. Best of luck.

Coleco

1g I posted over on pelican.

Adam thanks for the suggestions. In ITS I can run 15x7's or 16x7's all the way around. In ITS you have to keep the rear T-bars so I am going to go with(I think)30mm's and maybe 400 in the front. You are running 400 in F what size T-bars are you running? How about shocks/struts and bushings, what are you running? Are your Koni's revalved?

I also found out that you can't run FABCAR type arms in ITS, they have to be OE, so I will go with the early steel arms.

I would love to come down to Summit in Sept. but it's kind of a hike from the Boston Area.

keith

you said: I am thinking going 400 F and 30mm R to start off, with koni sports, should I go heavier or lighter up front?

30mm rear are light for 400# front springs, better suited for 350#. 350# (and 400, BTW)are certainly not too stiff for the street, so draw your own conclusions as to how well they will be suited to track-only duty. Adam is moving FROM 400# for his weekend track car as they are not stiff enough, and I am moving TO 350# on my STREET car as that is not overly stiff for an everyday car... i will be running this in combo w/30mm t-bars FOR THE STREET.

You need to find out if ITS will allow the later Porsche helper coils on the rear - that is what Adam is running, 400lb coils in addition to his stock t-bars, which ironically adds up to a little less than 400# spring rate at the wheels altogether.

you said: I think I will go with Turbo S bars, but I have a question, will the rear bolt right on with no modifications needed(86 944)?

There is a Porsche factory rear bar, 19mm, 3 way adjustable, that the dealer carries for only 120.00. You should find out if that is legal for ITS as well...

On tires, make sure you don't go wider than reccommended for rim width, or you will adversely affect turn in. I'd personally go 16, for shorter sidewall height and rubber availability. If you are limited to 16x7, run that all around...

Adam Richman

I am running 400# coilovers at all 4 corners leaving in the factory T-bars. Because you loose something over 40% spring rate in the rear due to offset (angle too?) it equals out to roughly the same front and rear (give or take 10 or 15 lbs.). Running Koni Yellows and when I jump up to 575 fr/750 rr I will undoubtedly have to get some shock/stut work done. I am running Turbo sways (25.5mm fr/ 18mm rr) and OE bushings.

Coleco

Thanks guys. I need to find out if I can run the helper springs in the rear. If not I will have to go 350 F 30mm R.

575 F and 750 R sounds more suitable for ITS.

jim3

Being an oldtimer, I seem to remember when the switch was made to alloy control arms it was because the steel arms were breaking in showroom stock racing like at Nelson Ledges. Not sure if that's really what you want to do. Personally, I'd check with Fabcar to see what they have to say about regs, I also seem to remember something about SCCA and 944 control arms that I would have thought they would be allowed. I'm a PCA stock class racer and have had Fabcars on both my racers and work in Boston if you wanted to get together off line.

Coleco

Oh also does anyone make bigger than 30mm T-Bars?

Coleco

Yeah I need to find out for sure if they allow FABCAR arms or not, I mean it's a safety issue.

I would love to get together off line. I am just starting my 944 project and need all the info. I can get. I live just 15min North of Boston.

You run PCA stock class which I think is very close to ITS rules.

What are some good race shops in MA(eastern)?

Adam Richman

I am sure there are bars bigger than the 30mm but I do think that is the largest solid bar (?). After that they go to hollow bars which for some reason (that escapes me) they are stiffer (same dia.) than the solids. I thought I heard that the setup for 400# is 31mm hollow but I am great at confusing this stuff.

Eric, you also might want to look into NASA who also has a race series. You would be in PS4 I believe and there, I am sure you can run the billet a-arms. NASA puts on events from Lime Rock to Roebling Road to my knowledge and we (yeah I think 87-88 16v and all 8v run in PS4 - trying to get confirmation on that) would be running against SE-R's, 325i's and the like (basically ITS cars). Not that I am knocking SCCA, cause I am not (but I simply can't compete in ITE with 150 RWHP) but NASA puts on a good show with almost no contact (at the last 5 or so race weekends I've seen [so 5x4x2 races for Legends and Big Bore]). The only contact I have seen has come from two SRX7's getting tangled and two stalls on the start. On the former, I have heard that spec series in general are very rough and on the latter, they have now instituted flagging at the start (volunteers line the start and wave the yellow like crazy if something happens in front of them - this signals the rest of the field back that there was a stall or such. And yes, they do standing starts. On that one I guess its pick your poison - hit T1 at 90mph or risk a stall on the grid.

It looks like NASA VA is up at Lime Rock on Aug 24 and 25 and Nazareth on Oct 6 and 7 so you might want to check them out. They also have many events per year at Summit, VIR and CMP.

Just thought I'd throw that in the mix. Best of luck whichever route you decide to pursue.

Skip

Up to 33mm (effective) hollow T-bars from Weltmeister are available. Hollow (or solid) T-bars are almost always expressed using the effective diameter... not the actual. Hollow also significantly reduces the unsprung weight... of great importance to your overall handling.

You may want to have this table handy when working out wheel rates:

944 rear wheel rates

400# fronts and 30mm T-bars (335) is a bit of a mismatch as suggested... However, it works great for me (400# Hypercoils, 30mm PowerBarz). If you look at what the factory did with M030 Turbo's and 968's... you'll see they went to higher, but still matched, rates in the back than the front (Turbo = 160-410# front, 25.5mm [175lb] rear; 968 = 160-410# front, 25.5mm + ~200lb coil-over [175+112=287#] rears) You'd also have to consider what sway bars you'll be using... and what shocks. You can "overspring" a car.... especially considering the rules only allow 7" wide wheels... that's not a lot of rubber to be using on a super-stiff car/chassis.

If you plan to move above 400# spring rates at any wheel, then you need to consider custom shock valving. The upper limit of the Koni sports are effective up to 400#'s or so.

The VW stamped steel arms used in the very early days were not strong enough in stock form for racing. Two methods were used to correct this: one is to seam weld the steel arms and make them much stronger and resistant to flex. the other was to replace with the Fabcar unit... now there are other options such as the Charlie Arms. For whatever reason Porsche went to the cast arms is a mystery to me... Probably just a sign of the times... as the rear trailing arms were also changed from steel to cast. I have an 86 944 with seam welded steel arms, and they work great... especially around ball-joint time... a whole $13 per side

Even though you're going into SCCA ITS, it's sometimes a good idea to build the car up for several classes in which it might be competitive... this allows you to change your mind... and more importantly, when it's time to sell, you appeal to a larger audience.

Good Luck with your mods and your racing!

Coleco

Thanks for the NASA suggestion Adam. I am so glad they finally made it to the east coast, if they can just open a NER chapter I would be golden. But like you said the NASA VA is racing at LRP so maybe I will go down and check it out at the end of this month(the car won't be done but I can watch).

SCCA IT racing, from the last few races I watched, had a lot of contact. That's good to hear that NASA is keeping the contact down. Hopefully SCCA will start cracking down on(NASCAR type passing) and for all I know they allready are(I am not a driver yet so I can't say for sure.).

Skip thanks for the link. That is so strange to me that a 30mm hollow bar is rated heavier than a 30mm solid bar, plus you loose the weight. Sounds good to me . I just read all the suspension tech articles on Paragon and they helped me out a lot.


So 33mm(effective) hollow bars are the biggest available. I noticed on the chart a 34mm.

How about drilled hollow bars will they be rated even heavier?

and they work great... especially around ball-joint time... a whole $13 per side.

You said it that is the main reason I want to go the steel arm route.

Even though you're going into SCCA ITS, it's sometimes a good idea to build the car up for several classes in which it might be competitive... this allows you to change your mind... and more importantly, when it's time to sell, you appeal to a larger audience.

That the main reason I picked the 944 8v because you can race it everywhere. NASA, POC, PCA, SCCA, and also up here in the NER COM, and EMRA. If I build it to ITS specs which has the strictest(and some of the dumbest) rules of all the classes I can run with any club and still be legal. If I built it with rear coilovers and [drool]Charlie Arms[/drool] I wouldn't be able to race in ITS(which may be a good thing ).


You guys are helping me out big time I really appreciate it.

IPC

There is also a new Race Body called World Cars. They run in the south east. So far the tracks are AMS,Atlanta Motor Speedway- CMP, Carolina Motorsports Park- Roebling Road in Savannah. They have Racing and Drivers ED. Track time is cheap. So check them out at www.worldcarz.com By the way I also Race a 85 944 With a 88 model engine. I run 350# front springs and 28mm Hollow rear torsion bars with Weltmeister sway bars. I have found this very effective.Worldcars- 1st place 3 weeks ago @ CMP in the sprint race and the enduro. PCA-3rd place at Roebling. Don't over spring the car. If you are going to run the sprint races in SCCA ITS the car will not be very competitive. The BMW's have the advantage. IF you run the enduro you will do OK. Good luck and I hope to see you at the races.
#57 I class PCA

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