JC in NY

Why don't they make a GTC4 class for the 944 Turbo Cup car? Let's preserve those too.

clubrcr

I believe the old theory was to try to find a place for every car. Based on what the decision was on the Euro Cups, the Rothman Turbo Cup race cars should be in a GT class.

The difference between the Rothman cars and the US Carrera Cup cars is that the US Cups had all the racing equipment taken back off by Andial and sold as a street car. They never raced nor had any race history. The euro Cup and the 944 Turbo Cup did.

I agree with you. If Euro Cups run in a GT class, then the same rules should apply for the 944 Rothman cars.

Jim

JC in NY

[quote]Originally posted by clubrcr:
<strong>...the US Cups had all the racing equipment taken back off by Andial and sold as a street car. They never raced nor had any race history... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Right, but...

Not to beat a dead horse - but everybody who races the USA Cup has prepared the car like a Euro Cup with ballast to bring it to 2760 lbs. Nobody is racing it in the exact street trim that rolled off the showroom floor. So, if it looks like a Euro Cup, feels like a Euro Cup, smells like a Euro Cup then guess what it is? They should run together in the same class and moreover a big class to provide better racing instead of a tiny orphan class with 1-2 cars.

clubrcr

JC you're missing the point. Porsche Club cares. They are the ones that made the rule. My car has to have the carpets, spare tire, etc.

Saying the US Cups are the same is saying that the 993RS, 964RS, 1974 911RS, 1987-89 Carrera Club, 1974 Carrera RS 3.0 should race in GT. These were all street cars and should be race in a street stock class. All the US Cups are, simply put, is Carrera RS.

The Euro Cup has air jacks, rollcage welded to the suspension points, a different DME, racing clutch, different trailing arms, as well as many other modifications that mine can't have and doesn't have.

Just my view.

Jim

Geoffrey

Clubrcr,

Do you have a list of the differences between the US Cup car and the Euro Cup car?

Not all the euro cup cars came with air jacks, and the ECU is the same with the same chip. I wasn't aware that the suspension differed between the two either.

clubrcr

I have a list of the items that were put on the US Cups and then removed by Andial. There were many items. Remember there were supercup cars and carrera cup cars. Many of the cars that came over to the US with Euror race history were Supercup cars. There was a difference between these two cars as well.

I am assuming that the US Cup cars werer going to bve made into Carrera Cups not SuperCups. The SuperCups had Air Jacks.

I would welcome any input on the difference between the 964 Carrera Cups and the 964 SuperCups, although I know there is a difference, I am getting most of information on these two cars from the "Porsche Sport" books.

If you are interested, email me and when I get home tonight, I email you the list.

Jim

JC in NY

Type 964 Cup was used in the Supercup series in 1993 only. They used air jacks and 18" Speedline wheels.

Type 964 Cup was used in the Carrera Cup series in 1990-1994. No air jacks and 17" one-piece wheels except in '94 when they switched to Supercup spec wheel.

In 1993 it was possible for the same car to compete in both series - maybe not for every race but many Carrera Cup cars have some Supercup history.

Not sure of the spec tire (Pirelli) was the same in both series. As far as I know the drivetrain, brakes and suspension was the same. There were minimum ride height restrictions.

The USA Cup cars were imported as type 964 Carrera 2 RS with some special mods to make them USA street legal (door beams, safety glass, alarm system, rear seats, etc). As such they were delivered with RS (not Cup) suspension. Andial was to convert them to a Carrera Cup specification with 17" one piece wheels, no air jacks, Matter cage, Cup suspension, etc. When the series was cancelled the cars were converted back to the street (RS with USA mods) spec.

clubrcr

I have an article, from excellence, that highlights the changes from race specs to street specs.

I can remember a few:

- Racing Clutch
- ABS Switch on/off
- Matter Cage
- Rear swing arms moved from side to side
- Moved the ABS box
- Racing Exhaust
- Kill switch moved
- Race seat
- Hood Pins
- Removal of front shock in bumper
- Racing wheels

I find the complete list tonight.

Jim

clubrcr

I wanted to add the list additions that the US Carrera Cup had to have to make it a race cup.

These were obtained from the lynch racing site.

1) Frt and RR struts and springs were changed to Carrera Cup Specs.
2) Rear trailing arms and spring plates were swapped from left to right side
3) Original seat were removed and one Recaro racing driver's seat was installed with six-point harness
4) Interior trim was removed to install the Matter Cage
5) Front shock tower brace added
6) ABS on/off switch
7) Rera brake pressure regulator valve was removed
8) Front Bumber shocks removed
9) Lightweight frt bumber installed
10) Driver's windoe net installed
11) Main and final muffler replaced with racing tuned exhaust
12) Heater blower removed
13) Kill switch installed on cowl
14) Cam cover stid and tranaxle stud replaced and drilled studs to accept anti tamper seals
15) Racing Clutch was installed
16) Horns relocated
17) Front oil cooler fanremoved and baffle installed
18) Front deck lid drilled to accomodate hood retaining pins
19) Driving lights replaced with plates
20)Wheels wewre replaced 8 and 9.5 x 17
21) Longer studs and spacers were added to the rear axles
22)Engine modification with a different motronic chip
23)Wooden Floor board for driver was installed
for the driver
24) Clear vinyl helicopter tape was used on the headlights
25)Momo steering wheel was installed
26)Removal of the clutch helper spring
27)Tow hooks front and rear
28)Removal of air bags and lower dash padding
29)Removal of alarm and central locking
30)Modifications to the air claener to elimnate silencing
31)ABS brain box moved
32)Pagid pads without sensors
33)Backing plates were removed frt and rear
34)Further lowering to just clear a 100mm block and changingof alignment to 2 30 and front and -2 20 rear and corner
35) Stiffer springs and shocks with a different uniball mounting frt and rear

There might be more.

Jim

OTEcupracer

I own and have raced a 93 euro car in several different series including Motorola cup where we had to get the weight up to 2910 lbs!. I have always said that the cars were great and competitive in D and also in C with the right driver. What I have always run into however were the whining crybabies that felt they were being screwed over by the car being in their class. Just let me run!! There are over 58 items which differ from the RS americas and the Carrera cup cars. This determinig factor of where to put the cars has been going on now for 5 years that I know of and it seems like the people whom make the rules are only listening to the competition not the cup car owners, but then you tell me whose going to be screaming the loudest anyway. I have actually thrown up my arms and have campaigned the car elsewhere. I'll still run PCA but I don't believe Euro cup car owners will be treated fairly as there are only a few of us as you had mentioned. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Karl T

"If Euro Cups run in a GT class, then the same rules should apply for the 944 Rothman cars."

--------

That's an interesting point. To my mind, PCA should be doing its utmost to creating substantial fields in each class to increase driver (and to a lesser extent, spectator) enjoyment. I, for one, would rather dice with a bunch of cars in a pack than drive around for 45 or 90 minutes as a class of one to receive my trophy (or just reward as trophies are verboten). The truth of the matter is that most of us Club Racers would rather drive around a track two abreast for the whole race, having a ball. Am I right?

By creating a separate class for the Euro 911 Cups, we enter into more of the GT5R groupings where two cars show up for premiere events like Watkins Glen. Who cares? Lump a bunch more cars together, adjust their weight so it's reasonably close, and go have fun.

Dumping the Rothmans Turbo Cup cars into their own category only exacerbates the problem (which I believe was the point of the original poster).

Karl T

M758

Karl,
I understand your point about have people to race with, but... since there are no "reward" or points does class real mater? I did my first two PCA club races this april. My car is prepped based on my low budget to 944-spec rules. This puts me in GT4S with a weight of 2450lbs and about 125-130 hp at the rear wheels. Clearly not class competitive, but I did find two guys in my run group to run with it was a blast. One was H Stock 911 and the other a D Stock RSA.

Point is that I had fun racing with guys in my run group, but not in my class. If you have 10 classes in run group even if there only one guy in class XYZ he can have a great time if there are a few guys in class ZXY that run times close to his.
Does class really matter that much?

clubrcr

Class does matter. Atleast to me. People spend alot of money to buy or build a car to be competetive for a certain class. When the car is upgraded to new class, the car might not be competetive anymore, thus spending the spends more money to be competetive. I agree that there is always a race within the race, but being up front really is more fun. I'll alwyas remember my first pole, coming down to the starters stand and seeing the green flag. Wow!

I feel the gripe with the euro cup guys is more about money. They had freedom to be more liberal on the changes they could make in the "D" class. In the GTC1 class, they have to put the car back to the way it was raced. Many of the guys have sold items off the cars becuase they didn't need them anymore. Now they are forced to buy them back.

Clubrcr

92 US Carerra Cup
88 Rothmans Turbo Cup
99 996

428scj

I don't currently race, but I have a US Cup. There is never going to be a perfect system when part of the goal should be simplicity. I'm sure we could receive greater class integrity if we wanted to have 50+ classes, but I don't think that is a solution. What is this web board going to look like when someone who can drive actually starts racing a 1991-92 3.3 Turbo? What will happen when someone brings over the Euro RS? I agree that the euro cups in their own class is a bit silly...C class makes more sense...let's call it a euro version of a US Cup, which it is, exhibiting modifications that would cost $20,000 to put on a stock US Cup (I know someone who just did this). Keep the US Cups in D, move the RS America to E with the C2s since that's all they really are, and run the Euro Cups in C. And as for keeping stock classes bone stock, I wouldn't step out my door to see that if it was run in my own back yard...not to mention the safety of running stock tires and suspensions...

38D

I was doing some searching today and came across this old thread. Just goes to show you that sometimes, what seems like an "unfair" change actually works out well. GTC1 is now a great class, arguably one of PCA's best (at least in the northeast).