where your Porsche's belong! Sears Point!
12-12-2002, 06:50 AM
#62
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
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[quote]
OK, here's my driving question, written as I await the long months till spring, thinking about my one & only DE @ Pocono North this past October -
Altho PN is a short relatively slow course, I often slid (drifted? not sure yet) the car out of the turns - and (need I tell ths group?) it was kick <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> I felt very much in control doing this.
So, question: is this always, sometimes, never, the fastest (slowest?) way around turn? Is a little slide right after the apex a mark being on the edge? (ie; as fast as you can go? - or, to bring it back to the beginning , 10/10ths?)
thanks 4 listening!
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> [/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Okay, discalimer first. This is based on my experience, FWIW, and YMMV.
To determine weather or not sliding is faster, the best way is to datalog. For example, if you try couple different driving approch, and study the graphs, you can easily determine which method is faster.
top graph - 928 ~350 hp ~3300 lbs w/driver
bottom graph - civic ~135 hp 2300 lbs w/driver
you can see the cornering speed different, and acceleration difference. anyway you can overlap multiple laps of one car too.
some cars, like the Impreza WRX, will really like to be tossed around to go fast. some cars, with good handling, will not need to be.
996 TT with stock suspension/tires for example, with inherent push from the AWD, will need to driven rough to go really fast.
996 GT2 on the other hand, will not need to be, and driven carefully with precision should be faster.
I dunno the balance of your car so I can't say. Track surface and conditions can also come into play. Also, how much sliding are we talking about here? Nothing wrong with getting a good rotation/slide @ turn in, and power all the way through.
As for maturity, listening and what not... thanks for your inputs guys. Seeing that I'm sort of an Internet veteran (since 1991), you whould think I've learn the lessons through the years. Indeed I have in a way, I do not take the Internet seriously, thus usually I don't really mind expressing my opinions and in this case, really put my reputation on the line. It's just the freaking Internet, right? No need to be so serious. All these people making personal comments, I'm not even really offended. They don't really know me, and most of the time they simply misunderstood. I'm bothered a little, but not much. I *must* be doing (writing) something wrong to give out all these negative perception. On the other hands, some people do share my view and knows about the kind of safe yet fast driving that I'm talking about.
The people that have met me in person will know the kind of person that I am. I think it's no use to say much more except if you do see me at the track, come say hi.
The only guy I have an issue with is this "SeriousRacer" guy. I really am curious to who he/she is. He wrote a lot of stuff but is so afraid to stand behind it. The rest of you that wrote, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. Just leave the snobbish, cheap, and personal comments off.
Happy Holidays. And may you get to go on the track more often next year.
OK, here's my driving question, written as I await the long months till spring, thinking about my one & only DE @ Pocono North this past October -
Altho PN is a short relatively slow course, I often slid (drifted? not sure yet) the car out of the turns - and (need I tell ths group?) it was kick <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> I felt very much in control doing this.
So, question: is this always, sometimes, never, the fastest (slowest?) way around turn? Is a little slide right after the apex a mark being on the edge? (ie; as fast as you can go? - or, to bring it back to the beginning , 10/10ths?)
thanks 4 listening!
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> [/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Okay, discalimer first. This is based on my experience, FWIW, and YMMV.
To determine weather or not sliding is faster, the best way is to datalog. For example, if you try couple different driving approch, and study the graphs, you can easily determine which method is faster.
top graph - 928 ~350 hp ~3300 lbs w/driver
bottom graph - civic ~135 hp 2300 lbs w/driver
you can see the cornering speed different, and acceleration difference. anyway you can overlap multiple laps of one car too.
some cars, like the Impreza WRX, will really like to be tossed around to go fast. some cars, with good handling, will not need to be.
996 TT with stock suspension/tires for example, with inherent push from the AWD, will need to driven rough to go really fast.
996 GT2 on the other hand, will not need to be, and driven carefully with precision should be faster.
I dunno the balance of your car so I can't say. Track surface and conditions can also come into play. Also, how much sliding are we talking about here? Nothing wrong with getting a good rotation/slide @ turn in, and power all the way through.
As for maturity, listening and what not... thanks for your inputs guys. Seeing that I'm sort of an Internet veteran (since 1991), you whould think I've learn the lessons through the years. Indeed I have in a way, I do not take the Internet seriously, thus usually I don't really mind expressing my opinions and in this case, really put my reputation on the line. It's just the freaking Internet, right? No need to be so serious. All these people making personal comments, I'm not even really offended. They don't really know me, and most of the time they simply misunderstood. I'm bothered a little, but not much. I *must* be doing (writing) something wrong to give out all these negative perception. On the other hands, some people do share my view and knows about the kind of safe yet fast driving that I'm talking about.
The people that have met me in person will know the kind of person that I am. I think it's no use to say much more except if you do see me at the track, come say hi.
The only guy I have an issue with is this "SeriousRacer" guy. I really am curious to who he/she is. He wrote a lot of stuff but is so afraid to stand behind it. The rest of you that wrote, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. Just leave the snobbish, cheap, and personal comments off.
Happy Holidays. And may you get to go on the track more often next year.
12-13-2002, 02:31 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by Alan Herod:
<strong>pig4bill - why take statements out of context, a lot of things to consider - this was just an idea, not anything mandatory. If you don't want anybody to drive your car, simply don't let them. You have voiced an opinion, I will take it as one data point. Again our region encourages instructors to drive beginner's cars for the first two laps to demonstrate the line and everything else that has already been mentioned. What are your objectives at DE? Are they the same as they appear to be here? (a loaded question)
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
What statement did I take out of context? I'm not sure what you mean by this either: "this was just an idea, not anything mandatory".
What's my objective at DE? To get on the track and have some fun. What do you mean by this: "Are they the same as they appear to be here? (a loaded question)"? If you are implying I'm trying to get into a pissing match, you could not be more wrong. I definitely dislike the notion that just because a person is an instructor, they think it's a license to take a joyride in my car. I'm not accusing Ghetto or anybody else here of that. But halfway down the thread there are implications that it does happen at some clubs, so I was only trying to get a clarification as to whether that's the case.
<strong>pig4bill - why take statements out of context, a lot of things to consider - this was just an idea, not anything mandatory. If you don't want anybody to drive your car, simply don't let them. You have voiced an opinion, I will take it as one data point. Again our region encourages instructors to drive beginner's cars for the first two laps to demonstrate the line and everything else that has already been mentioned. What are your objectives at DE? Are they the same as they appear to be here? (a loaded question)
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
What statement did I take out of context? I'm not sure what you mean by this either: "this was just an idea, not anything mandatory".
What's my objective at DE? To get on the track and have some fun. What do you mean by this: "Are they the same as they appear to be here? (a loaded question)"? If you are implying I'm trying to get into a pissing match, you could not be more wrong. I definitely dislike the notion that just because a person is an instructor, they think it's a license to take a joyride in my car. I'm not accusing Ghetto or anybody else here of that. But halfway down the thread there are implications that it does happen at some clubs, so I was only trying to get a clarification as to whether that's the case.
12-13-2002, 06:52 PM
#65
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I hate to get involved with this kind of banter -- it seems pointless. You asked what I meant when I said you took something out of context -- I'll try to explain...
It started when I said:
"I've thought about this a bit -- mainly the issue of driving the students car.... I think it is good to drive the students car at a reasonable pace as an extension of tech inspection. No matter how dilligently we check, we will not catch everything at tech...
Someone challenged what I said and I attempted to clarify:
"Seriously part of the responsibility of the instructor is to go over the car with the student. Driving a new student's car at a relatively sedate pace for two laps while demonstrating the line should not be compared with sliding the car around the track at opposite lock. I am sure that every region has some minor differences, but we are encouraged to drive the students car, not flog it.
... The extension of tech is a new idea --
In this case most of the tech team are instructors, and we are all volunteers, and don't get these extra bennies that I keep hearing about. I do welcome your datapoints though -- we have formed an IPT to see how we can do things better."
You said:
"As far as not letting anybody drive it, the other fellow said it was part of tech. Which certainly implies it's mandatory."
Encouraged does not mean mandatory, and I did mention that we were looking at ways to do things better.
I do believe that you are argumentative and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. Personally, I am somewhat ambivalent with regard to driving another's car; but, I still think it is a good idea in the case of a beginner. I don't equate driving a students car to joyriding, although I strive to make the DE experience enjoyable.
Are you worried that the instructor driving a student's car around the track at a sedate pace is putting the student's car in more danger then the student is putting the instructor and his own car? If an instructor isn't more capable of handling a student's car at 80 or 90 then a student is of handling his own car at 120-140, then the instructor should not be one. I like knowing when you apply the brakes that the car will stop straight ahead, or that the suspension reacts like it should.
Tod's group certainly "pays" better then our PCA region. We generally take the risk because we enjoy the sport, hanging out with other people with a similar interest, telling war-stories, and helping others. We are sort of like evangelists trying to bring new converts into the fold.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
It started when I said:
"I've thought about this a bit -- mainly the issue of driving the students car.... I think it is good to drive the students car at a reasonable pace as an extension of tech inspection. No matter how dilligently we check, we will not catch everything at tech...
Someone challenged what I said and I attempted to clarify:
"Seriously part of the responsibility of the instructor is to go over the car with the student. Driving a new student's car at a relatively sedate pace for two laps while demonstrating the line should not be compared with sliding the car around the track at opposite lock. I am sure that every region has some minor differences, but we are encouraged to drive the students car, not flog it.
... The extension of tech is a new idea --
In this case most of the tech team are instructors, and we are all volunteers, and don't get these extra bennies that I keep hearing about. I do welcome your datapoints though -- we have formed an IPT to see how we can do things better."
You said:
"As far as not letting anybody drive it, the other fellow said it was part of tech. Which certainly implies it's mandatory."
Encouraged does not mean mandatory, and I did mention that we were looking at ways to do things better.
I do believe that you are argumentative and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. Personally, I am somewhat ambivalent with regard to driving another's car; but, I still think it is a good idea in the case of a beginner. I don't equate driving a students car to joyriding, although I strive to make the DE experience enjoyable.
Are you worried that the instructor driving a student's car around the track at a sedate pace is putting the student's car in more danger then the student is putting the instructor and his own car? If an instructor isn't more capable of handling a student's car at 80 or 90 then a student is of handling his own car at 120-140, then the instructor should not be one. I like knowing when you apply the brakes that the car will stop straight ahead, or that the suspension reacts like it should.
Tod's group certainly "pays" better then our PCA region. We generally take the risk because we enjoy the sport, hanging out with other people with a similar interest, telling war-stories, and helping others. We are sort of like evangelists trying to bring new converts into the fold.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-16-2002, 03:47 AM
#66
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by Alan Herod:
<strong>I hate to get involved with this kind of banter -- it seems pointless. You asked what I meant when I said you took something out of context -- I'll try to explain...
It started when I said:
"I've thought about this a bit -- mainly the issue of driving the students car.... I think it is good to drive the students car at a reasonable pace as an extension of tech inspection. No matter how dilligently we check, we will not catch everything at tech...
Someone challenged what I said and I attempted to clarify:
"Seriously part of the responsibility of the instructor is to go over the car with the student. Driving a new student's car at a relatively sedate pace for two laps while demonstrating the line should not be compared with sliding the car around the track at opposite lock. I am sure that every region has some minor differences, but we are encouraged to drive the students car, not flog it.
... The extension of tech is a new idea --
In this case most of the tech team are instructors, and we are all volunteers, and don't get these extra bennies that I keep hearing about. I do welcome your datapoints though -- we have formed an IPT to see how we can do things better."
You said:
"As far as not letting anybody drive it, the other fellow said it was part of tech. Which certainly implies it's mandatory."
Encouraged does not mean mandatory, and I did mention that we were looking at ways to do things better. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Whatever you said has got nothing to do with me. Bill Gregory and I were exchanging posts. I posted nothing to you until my last post. Ghetto jumped in, but I got no problem with what he posted. I don't necesarily agree with it, but I got no beef with him.
[quote]<strong>
I do believe that you are argumentative and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look who's talking. You jumped into the exchange between myself and somebody else.
[quote]<strong>
Are you worried that the instructor driving a student's car around the track at a sedate pace is putting the student's car in more danger then the student is putting the instructor and his own car? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Err, yeah. Because my car would be sitting in the paddock while I'm riding in the instructor's car. The likelihood that the instructor would damage my car is greatly dimished.
<strong>I hate to get involved with this kind of banter -- it seems pointless. You asked what I meant when I said you took something out of context -- I'll try to explain...
It started when I said:
"I've thought about this a bit -- mainly the issue of driving the students car.... I think it is good to drive the students car at a reasonable pace as an extension of tech inspection. No matter how dilligently we check, we will not catch everything at tech...
Someone challenged what I said and I attempted to clarify:
"Seriously part of the responsibility of the instructor is to go over the car with the student. Driving a new student's car at a relatively sedate pace for two laps while demonstrating the line should not be compared with sliding the car around the track at opposite lock. I am sure that every region has some minor differences, but we are encouraged to drive the students car, not flog it.
... The extension of tech is a new idea --
In this case most of the tech team are instructors, and we are all volunteers, and don't get these extra bennies that I keep hearing about. I do welcome your datapoints though -- we have formed an IPT to see how we can do things better."
You said:
"As far as not letting anybody drive it, the other fellow said it was part of tech. Which certainly implies it's mandatory."
Encouraged does not mean mandatory, and I did mention that we were looking at ways to do things better. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Whatever you said has got nothing to do with me. Bill Gregory and I were exchanging posts. I posted nothing to you until my last post. Ghetto jumped in, but I got no problem with what he posted. I don't necesarily agree with it, but I got no beef with him.
[quote]<strong>
I do believe that you are argumentative and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look who's talking. You jumped into the exchange between myself and somebody else.
[quote]<strong>
Are you worried that the instructor driving a student's car around the track at a sedate pace is putting the student's car in more danger then the student is putting the instructor and his own car? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Err, yeah. Because my car would be sitting in the paddock while I'm riding in the instructor's car. The likelihood that the instructor would damage my car is greatly dimished.