911 Front Suspension Mods
11-18-2002, 03:05 AM
#1
Race Car
Thread Starter
911 Front Suspension Mods
Having crashed my 911 at Laguna Seca, I'm looking to make it a little better while putting it back together. I've heard about raising the spindle on Bilstein struts to improve suspension geometry, and (I think) increase the range of negative camber adjustment. I've also read about cutting and extending the front control arms for an improvement in camber adjustability. Does anyone know of shops that do this work, and what the best (and most cost-effective) way to go is? I'm looking for opinion.
When the car is done, it will weigh 2200 pounds, with RSR flaring, 10x12x17 wheels with 275/315 tires. I currently have 21/30 torsion bars with 22/22 swaybars. I'm going to get a Smart Racing rear swaybar, and I'm also interested in people's thoughts on what diameter would be best.
I've modified my strut mounts for -2 degrees camber in front, but I want more.
When the car is done, it will weigh 2200 pounds, with RSR flaring, 10x12x17 wheels with 275/315 tires. I currently have 21/30 torsion bars with 22/22 swaybars. I'm going to get a Smart Racing rear swaybar, and I'm also interested in people's thoughts on what diameter would be best.
I've modified my strut mounts for -2 degrees camber in front, but I want more.
11-18-2002, 12:11 PM
#2
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Torrance ,Ca
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack,
Sorry to hear of your Laguna mishap.
Front suspension: An alterntive to cutting the a-arms and extending them is to de-camber the frontstruts. If you are planning to raise the spindle you may as well have the struts de-cambered at the same time. I know Steve Alarcon at Johnson Alignmnet has done this many times, he's in Torrance. Another good choice is Gailen Beiker at Werks II.
Swaybars: Speak to Craig Watkins at Smart Racing, he sets up Van Overbeeks car and is very knowledgeable.
Good luck !
Sorry to hear of your Laguna mishap.
Front suspension: An alterntive to cutting the a-arms and extending them is to de-camber the frontstruts. If you are planning to raise the spindle you may as well have the struts de-cambered at the same time. I know Steve Alarcon at Johnson Alignmnet has done this many times, he's in Torrance. Another good choice is Gailen Beiker at Werks II.
Swaybars: Speak to Craig Watkins at Smart Racing, he sets up Van Overbeeks car and is very knowledgeable.
Good luck !
11-18-2002, 01:32 PM
#3
RL Technical Advisor
Hi:
Just as a note of reference for who might read this thread wondering what modifications to perform on his or her 911, this should be clarified.
Lengthened A-arms and offset-bored spindles are two separate changes done for separate reasons.
1) Extending the A-arm length changes the camber curve of the front suspension, and helps keeps the tires flatter on the road.
2) Offset boring the spindles adds more static camber to help restore what is lost when the spindles are raised.
Apples & Oranges,.....
Just as a note of reference for who might read this thread wondering what modifications to perform on his or her 911, this should be clarified.
Lengthened A-arms and offset-bored spindles are two separate changes done for separate reasons.
1) Extending the A-arm length changes the camber curve of the front suspension, and helps keeps the tires flatter on the road.
2) Offset boring the spindles adds more static camber to help restore what is lost when the spindles are raised.
Apples & Oranges,.....
11-19-2002, 03:24 PM
#4
Advanced
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack:
I do not know if you are planning to race your repaired car or not. If you are, you may wish to consider whether your planned supension changes would move you up a class. Just a thought.
Ted
I do not know if you are planning to race your repaired car or not. If you are, you may wish to consider whether your planned supension changes would move you up a class. Just a thought.
Ted
11-27-2002, 01:49 AM
#7
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We like boxing the strut towers, running camber plates, making full coil-over struts to the car which are shorter and have the pick-ups raised. World class handling at the end of the job.
Trending Topics
11-29-2002, 10:43 AM
#8
Advanced
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack, It might make sense to sell the Bilsteins and order JRZ single adjustable Struts with the spindle already raised and the extra camber included. The initial cost seems high but, remember there is no charge for the changes and it’s quite expensive to have your Bilsteins modified….and you still end up with 1970’s technology shocks. The JRZ’s will make a huge difference in the car. Also consider the ERP 935 front suspension rather than cutting and welding you arms. The ERP front suspension is much lighter, more adjustable and better geometry all around.
Cary
Cary
11-29-2002, 12:21 PM
#9
Lifetime Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by 959:
<strong>Jack, It might make sense to sell the Bilsteins and order JRZ single adjustable Struts with the spindle already raised and the extra camber included. The initial cost seems high but, remember there is no charge for the changes and it’s quite expensive to have your Bilsteins modified….and you still end up with 1970’s technology shocks. The JRZ’s will make a huge difference in the car. Also consider the ERP 935 front suspension rather than cutting and welding you arms. The ERP front suspension is much lighter, more adjustable and better geometry all around.
Cary</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cary,
I couldn't help but notice that in another post you signed your name as being part of ERP, but did not do so here, where you are recommending your product. We try to operate here with full disclosure, so if you are a happy customer vs. vendor you should say so. If a vendor, then you should look at the policies on promtion and sponsorship (if you are not already a sponsor).
No flame, just pointing out the way we run as you seem to be new here.
<strong>Jack, It might make sense to sell the Bilsteins and order JRZ single adjustable Struts with the spindle already raised and the extra camber included. The initial cost seems high but, remember there is no charge for the changes and it’s quite expensive to have your Bilsteins modified….and you still end up with 1970’s technology shocks. The JRZ’s will make a huge difference in the car. Also consider the ERP 935 front suspension rather than cutting and welding you arms. The ERP front suspension is much lighter, more adjustable and better geometry all around.
Cary</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cary,
I couldn't help but notice that in another post you signed your name as being part of ERP, but did not do so here, where you are recommending your product. We try to operate here with full disclosure, so if you are a happy customer vs. vendor you should say so. If a vendor, then you should look at the policies on promtion and sponsorship (if you are not already a sponsor).
No flame, just pointing out the way we run as you seem to be new here.
11-30-2002, 05:47 AM
#10
Advanced
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack and the rest...I’m really sorry I left off that I was the owner of ERP, it wasn’t intentional and what I wrote was meant purely as a suggesting. If you want to talk more about suspension geometry I’d be more than happy to tell you as much as I’ve learned so far. First it looks like I need to read the rules closer, sounds like this guy is telling me there are limits to what I can say.
Now to User ID: Mark D – TT Alumni
Yes, I am new to rennlist, thank you for that warm welcome. As much as it looks like you are insinuating that I was being sneaky and deceitful it was actually no more than a slip on my part that I forgot to write ERP under my name. You are correct that I did in fact write ERP in another post where I ALSO talked about my products. However, you neglected to include that I was in yet another post for 996 TT’s where someone had questions about camber plates. In that one I explained that I make what he is looking for but advised AGAINST it! For his application I felt GT3 Club sport A-arms would be more suitable and then gave the factory part numbers. I put my name along with ERP on that one as well adding the fact I’m the owner. Now look...we have 3 completely different ways I signed the post. Wow, this is becoming rather fascinating isn’t it. Is it possible that I may have a rare disorder known as DPS (Disclosure Paranoia Syndrome). I mean, every time I put something down it comes out differently.
I have to tell you that your aggression towards me was mind boggling. Did you feel it was really necessary to publicly chastise me to the degree you did? Do you really feel you had caught me at something dishonest. Have you ever thought about the notion that not everyone is out to get the other guy. Some people actually do what they do simple because they enjoy the satisfaction of helping others. Isn’t that rather pompous to get that way when you have no idea who I am and how many times I’ve given my time at the track for free just to help others and in many cases they never even knew my name. It seems that might be a real stretch of the imagination for you but, it’s true. Yet you come across like I was only there to trick the other guy. We must live in different worlds because I first trust people and try to help them before I accuse them of intensional wrong doings. Looking back on this, don’t you think there could have been a nicer and more humane approach to your response.
I have to say, in keeping with my good nature and sense of humor, I can’t help but see the irony in all of this like, who are you? I clearly have no secrets but, why don’t you sign your name. Is there a reason you don’t want people to know what city or country you live in? I just wanted to help a fellow Porsche person by offering some suggestion. I don’t think I was putting his arm behind his back.
Well, you’ve had you time an now I’ve had mine. If you have other comments which I’m sure you do, simply email me at cary@eisenlohr.com. If you feel compelled to response to me on this post I will NOT respond back because I feel we’ve already wasted enough of other peoples time and space on the site
Kindest Regards,
Cary Eisenlohr
ERP/Owner
Now to User ID: Mark D – TT Alumni
Yes, I am new to rennlist, thank you for that warm welcome. As much as it looks like you are insinuating that I was being sneaky and deceitful it was actually no more than a slip on my part that I forgot to write ERP under my name. You are correct that I did in fact write ERP in another post where I ALSO talked about my products. However, you neglected to include that I was in yet another post for 996 TT’s where someone had questions about camber plates. In that one I explained that I make what he is looking for but advised AGAINST it! For his application I felt GT3 Club sport A-arms would be more suitable and then gave the factory part numbers. I put my name along with ERP on that one as well adding the fact I’m the owner. Now look...we have 3 completely different ways I signed the post. Wow, this is becoming rather fascinating isn’t it. Is it possible that I may have a rare disorder known as DPS (Disclosure Paranoia Syndrome). I mean, every time I put something down it comes out differently.
I have to tell you that your aggression towards me was mind boggling. Did you feel it was really necessary to publicly chastise me to the degree you did? Do you really feel you had caught me at something dishonest. Have you ever thought about the notion that not everyone is out to get the other guy. Some people actually do what they do simple because they enjoy the satisfaction of helping others. Isn’t that rather pompous to get that way when you have no idea who I am and how many times I’ve given my time at the track for free just to help others and in many cases they never even knew my name. It seems that might be a real stretch of the imagination for you but, it’s true. Yet you come across like I was only there to trick the other guy. We must live in different worlds because I first trust people and try to help them before I accuse them of intensional wrong doings. Looking back on this, don’t you think there could have been a nicer and more humane approach to your response.
I have to say, in keeping with my good nature and sense of humor, I can’t help but see the irony in all of this like, who are you? I clearly have no secrets but, why don’t you sign your name. Is there a reason you don’t want people to know what city or country you live in? I just wanted to help a fellow Porsche person by offering some suggestion. I don’t think I was putting his arm behind his back.
Well, you’ve had you time an now I’ve had mine. If you have other comments which I’m sure you do, simply email me at cary@eisenlohr.com. If you feel compelled to response to me on this post I will NOT respond back because I feel we’ve already wasted enough of other peoples time and space on the site
Kindest Regards,
Cary Eisenlohr
ERP/Owner
11-30-2002, 06:15 PM
#11
Drifting
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Villanova, PA
Posts: 2,331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by 959:
<strong>Also consider the ERP 935 front suspension rather than cutting and welding you arms. The ERP front suspension is much lighter, more adjustable and better geometry all around.
Cary</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just keep it real Cary. There are a lot of unscrupulous pseudo business people out there and with the size of Rennlist, we see many of them. I know your products and I am glad to see you involved in the forums. If you spend a lot of time in these parts, you will undoubtedly find it worth your time to become a site sponsor. We have more than 15,000 enthusiasts that hang out here, and most would like to have a 'reason' to support your company. I know I have considered your camber plates form my 993 for a while now...
E. J.
<strong>Also consider the ERP 935 front suspension rather than cutting and welding you arms. The ERP front suspension is much lighter, more adjustable and better geometry all around.
Cary</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just keep it real Cary. There are a lot of unscrupulous pseudo business people out there and with the size of Rennlist, we see many of them. I know your products and I am glad to see you involved in the forums. If you spend a lot of time in these parts, you will undoubtedly find it worth your time to become a site sponsor. We have more than 15,000 enthusiasts that hang out here, and most would like to have a 'reason' to support your company. I know I have considered your camber plates form my 993 for a while now...
E. J.
11-30-2002, 06:32 PM
#12
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
"I have to tell you that your aggression towards me was mind boggling. Did you feel it was really necessary to publicly chastise me to the degree you did? "
Cary,
I don't think Mark's post was aggresive but you sure are on the defensive. I think his post was just a heads-up to you, not a public chastising.
I think he was just trying to help you and you ought to re-think your response.
Cary,
I don't think Mark's post was aggresive but you sure are on the defensive. I think his post was just a heads-up to you, not a public chastising.
I think he was just trying to help you and you ought to re-think your response.
11-30-2002, 09:42 PM
#13
Advanced
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E.J.
Thanks for the response, I understand the concerns (point well taken) I’m trying to comprehend the size of rennlist...sheeeshhh it's amazingly huge! I look forward to being a sponsor in the near future but, the part I haven’t figured out yet is how to do so being a wholesaler. I have some great distributors that have supported me from the very beginning and I won't dare step on their feet. My main reason for being here to get a better idea of what the end user’s needs are and to lend my experience when I can so we can continue to learn what makes these things tick. Selling directly to my end users is not my motive here. By nature I am certifiable car nut and a poor salesperson so, that’s why I’ve left that to others. I’m hoping to just be one of the “guys” and not business owner trying to sell the next widget. I sit here making parts all day not always knowing where they go and as a result I'm learning there are times when end users are trying to use my parts when quite frankly it’s not necessary or even counter productive. I want to have the ablitly to respond directly to these kinds of issues. In many ways I’m just simple naive guy who’s sole mission in life is to see how fast and safe one can go in a P car, not much else interest me. So, with that mind set maybe that explains why I felt so attacked by that posting. I was just putting in my .02 and felt someone thought it was all a part of a big city plan. I just don’t think way. Anyway, I’m looking forward to spending more time learning and talking with people.
Thanks again,
P.S. Sorry about all this stuff getting posted Jack...hopefully we can get back to your car...you know, that cool looking black car that this is suppose to be about
Thanks for the response, I understand the concerns (point well taken) I’m trying to comprehend the size of rennlist...sheeeshhh it's amazingly huge! I look forward to being a sponsor in the near future but, the part I haven’t figured out yet is how to do so being a wholesaler. I have some great distributors that have supported me from the very beginning and I won't dare step on their feet. My main reason for being here to get a better idea of what the end user’s needs are and to lend my experience when I can so we can continue to learn what makes these things tick. Selling directly to my end users is not my motive here. By nature I am certifiable car nut and a poor salesperson so, that’s why I’ve left that to others. I’m hoping to just be one of the “guys” and not business owner trying to sell the next widget. I sit here making parts all day not always knowing where they go and as a result I'm learning there are times when end users are trying to use my parts when quite frankly it’s not necessary or even counter productive. I want to have the ablitly to respond directly to these kinds of issues. In many ways I’m just simple naive guy who’s sole mission in life is to see how fast and safe one can go in a P car, not much else interest me. So, with that mind set maybe that explains why I felt so attacked by that posting. I was just putting in my .02 and felt someone thought it was all a part of a big city plan. I just don’t think way. Anyway, I’m looking forward to spending more time learning and talking with people.
Thanks again,
P.S. Sorry about all this stuff getting posted Jack...hopefully we can get back to your car...you know, that cool looking black car that this is suppose to be about
11-30-2002, 09:48 PM
#14
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
"I look forward to being a sponsor in the near future but, the part I haven’t figured out yet is how to do so being a wholesaler. I have some great distributors that have supported me from the very beginning and I won't dare step on their feet. "
Talk to John Dunkle about this (rennlist owner) I am sure he has help other companies in similar situations. Your technical advice would be welcome here.
Talk to John Dunkle about this (rennlist owner) I am sure he has help other companies in similar situations. Your technical advice would be welcome here.