Shifting in Corners
11-14-2002, 12:42 PM
#1
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Shifting in Corners
I have been driving for many years now and I have always wondered why people say "You can't shift in corners?" I understand that if you are not smooth it will upset the car but as long as you match rev's then there should not be a problem. Anyone else have any ideas???
11-14-2002, 01:03 PM
#3
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I'm still trying to think of a place I'd prefer to shift in the corner rather than after I've slowed to enter the corner. Maybe you have a particular corner or situation in mind that I haven't considered. On a long increasing radius I can imagine shifting *up* before the front wheels are completely straightened coming out.
11-14-2002, 01:29 PM
#4
Race Director
Down shifting in a corner is bad since if you do not exacly match a gear change the back of the car will loose traction since should be at the cornering limit anyway. This will cause a spin. Bad News.
Much better to downshift in the braking zone when the car is straight just in case you are not 100% smooth. It that case the car will not spin on you.
There is one spot locally where I have to UP Shift out of corner since I run out of gear before I exit the turn. Again it can upset the balance of the car, but in this case it actually helps.
Once I was entering a tight 180 corner during a qualifying session I tried to pass a slower car on the inside. Well my brakes did not hold and my car just started in toward the other car in T-bone type attitude. It would not slow down or turn. Well my last resort was put the car in 2nd gear and dump the clutch. To my relief the car immediatly turned since the back wheels broke loose. I was able to control it and make pass cleanly. Down shifting in corner is sure why to spin the car. Rarly it is good. Mostly it is bad!
Much better to downshift in the braking zone when the car is straight just in case you are not 100% smooth. It that case the car will not spin on you.
There is one spot locally where I have to UP Shift out of corner since I run out of gear before I exit the turn. Again it can upset the balance of the car, but in this case it actually helps.
Once I was entering a tight 180 corner during a qualifying session I tried to pass a slower car on the inside. Well my brakes did not hold and my car just started in toward the other car in T-bone type attitude. It would not slow down or turn. Well my last resort was put the car in 2nd gear and dump the clutch. To my relief the car immediatly turned since the back wheels broke loose. I was able to control it and make pass cleanly. Down shifting in corner is sure why to spin the car. Rarly it is good. Mostly it is bad!
11-14-2002, 01:35 PM
#5
Race Director
Shifting in a corner will unbalance the car, regardless of how smooth you are. Any change in acceleration will effect the transfer of weight: forward or rearward. This transfer of weight can unbalance the car and cause serious "slide" effects! Push the clutch in, and you're slowing down, and the weight is being transfered to the front.
This past summer, I had a 'brain fart' at the Glen. I was getting faster, so that meant I needed to grab 5th gear on the back straight. On one lap, I was coming out of turn 4 at about 115 mph, and BEFORE the steering wheel was straight, I did my upshift. I felt the car slightly slide (oversteer). Not too bad: no massive sliding, but after that, I made sure I was 100% straight before grabbing 5th. You don't want to be in an oversteering condition at 115mph!
You may not see this effect driving on public streets at slower speeds, but when you're on the track and in the higher rpm range, the effect can be very, very noticable.
Are you familiar with throttle steering? If you are, then you know that even the slightest adjustment of your foot will change the car's attitude. Pushing in the clutch is a serious adjustment of your foot, and consequently, the attitude of your car!
Hope that makes sense!
-Zoltan.
This past summer, I had a 'brain fart' at the Glen. I was getting faster, so that meant I needed to grab 5th gear on the back straight. On one lap, I was coming out of turn 4 at about 115 mph, and BEFORE the steering wheel was straight, I did my upshift. I felt the car slightly slide (oversteer). Not too bad: no massive sliding, but after that, I made sure I was 100% straight before grabbing 5th. You don't want to be in an oversteering condition at 115mph!
You may not see this effect driving on public streets at slower speeds, but when you're on the track and in the higher rpm range, the effect can be very, very noticable.
Are you familiar with throttle steering? If you are, then you know that even the slightest adjustment of your foot will change the car's attitude. Pushing in the clutch is a serious adjustment of your foot, and consequently, the attitude of your car!
Hope that makes sense!
-Zoltan.
11-14-2002, 02:14 PM
#6
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The softer the suspension is, especially in the rear, the less forgiving the car will be to changes in throttle state in a turn. If you're trail braking deep( that is, braking into the turn)you'll need to downshift while you're in the turn. You'd better know how to match revs well. It looks beautiful when done well, though. The car is standing up on the front outside tire and some of the turning is already done. The other instance of downshifting in a turn is less pretty. Twice, I've had to do it, and I remember each time WELL. I was working up to max possible speed through a turn and got to the point where I ran out of gear. So on the next lap I tried going through the turn in the next higher gear. Half way through the turn I started oversteering and the car was not responding to the throttle because I didn't have enough revs in that higher gear. This is when even a nun would scream, "Ahh sh#t!!" 
I needed more revs NOW to plant the rear and keep me from spinning out. Only one thing to do. While sliding more and more sideways, a very quick heel/toe downshift quickly followed by full throttle. Whoa Nelly!! Pretty hairy, but in both cases that's just what the car needed and it worked out fine. By the way, the second time this happened, I was coming out of a sweeper in front of a big crowd of time trialers at the San Diego stadium. After I got the car straight, I looked back to see if I'd hit any cones, and saw the whole crowd was clapping. Ahhh, good times, good memories....Isn't that why we race? Now where's that beer? Don't try this move at home or you could end up on that TV show, "Jackass."
I needed more revs NOW to plant the rear and keep me from spinning out. Only one thing to do. While sliding more and more sideways, a very quick heel/toe downshift quickly followed by full throttle. Whoa Nelly!! Pretty hairy, but in both cases that's just what the car needed and it worked out fine. By the way, the second time this happened, I was coming out of a sweeper in front of a big crowd of time trialers at the San Diego stadium. After I got the car straight, I looked back to see if I'd hit any cones, and saw the whole crowd was clapping. Ahhh, good times, good memories....Isn't that why we race? Now where's that beer? Don't try this move at home or you could end up on that TV show, "Jackass."
11-14-2002, 02:33 PM
#7
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Thats what I am talking about. If you are trail braking into the turn then you have to downshift in the middle so you can accelerate out of the corner...I have never had a problem with the car unsettling...maybe I am not going fast enough....Got a new car now so it should be interesting switching from 914 to 911GT3 Cup car...
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11-14-2002, 03:00 PM
#8
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by camond:
<strong>Thats what I am talking about. If you are trail braking into the turn then you have to downshift in the middle so you can accelerate out of the corner...I have never had a problem with the car unsettling...maybe I am not going fast enough....Got a new car now so it should be interesting switching from 914 to 911GT3 Cup car...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You should already be in the lower gear before trail braking. In trail braking, you're on the jagged edge of adhesion: there's not much more the car can give you, and you're asking for more if you downshift!
Maybe I'm too new at this stuff, but this is how I've been taught how to approach a corner on the track:
1. As you approach the brake zone, start braking at your desired spot.
2. After the initial braking has been done, heel and toe downshift. (Obviously, you're still braking at this point).
3. You should be turning into the corner as have completed your downshift, but are still on the brakes, but are beginning to ease off (trail braking).
It is very important to focus on one thing at a time in this process: don't rush any of it, especially the downshift! (I say to mayself: "Brake - shift - turn" when I approach a corner. I say that and "I wonder if I left the iron on at home..."
)
If you do the trail braking first, and then downshift, you have a sure recipie for a spin. Maybe not every time, but it will happen.
-Z.
<strong>Thats what I am talking about. If you are trail braking into the turn then you have to downshift in the middle so you can accelerate out of the corner...I have never had a problem with the car unsettling...maybe I am not going fast enough....Got a new car now so it should be interesting switching from 914 to 911GT3 Cup car...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You should already be in the lower gear before trail braking. In trail braking, you're on the jagged edge of adhesion: there's not much more the car can give you, and you're asking for more if you downshift!
Maybe I'm too new at this stuff, but this is how I've been taught how to approach a corner on the track:
1. As you approach the brake zone, start braking at your desired spot.
2. After the initial braking has been done, heel and toe downshift. (Obviously, you're still braking at this point).
3. You should be turning into the corner as have completed your downshift, but are still on the brakes, but are beginning to ease off (trail braking).
It is very important to focus on one thing at a time in this process: don't rush any of it, especially the downshift! (I say to mayself: "Brake - shift - turn" when I approach a corner. I say that and "I wonder if I left the iron on at home..."
) If you do the trail braking first, and then downshift, you have a sure recipie for a spin. Maybe not every time, but it will happen.
-Z.
11-14-2002, 03:04 PM
#9
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Z-man
I think we are saying the same thing just in a different way. I just brake later and deeper into the corner( just easier to pass that way) but I understand the traction circle and that there is only so many things that a car can do at one time.
I think we are saying the same thing just in a different way. I just brake later and deeper into the corner( just easier to pass that way) but I understand the traction circle and that there is only so many things that a car can do at one time.
11-14-2002, 03:31 PM
#10
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by camond:
<strong>Z-man
I think we are saying the same thing just in a different way. I just brake later and deeper into the corner( just easier to pass that way) but I understand the traction circle and that there is only so many things that a car can do at one time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, we are all talking about braking and downshifting, but in my situation, the downshift is done while the car is still travelling straight, while you're argument is that you should be able to downshift in the middle of a corner. I disagree on that line of thinking. When I drive on the track, I ALWAYS downshift while the streering wheel is still pointed straight.
-Z
<strong>Z-man
I think we are saying the same thing just in a different way. I just brake later and deeper into the corner( just easier to pass that way) but I understand the traction circle and that there is only so many things that a car can do at one time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, we are all talking about braking and downshifting, but in my situation, the downshift is done while the car is still travelling straight, while you're argument is that you should be able to downshift in the middle of a corner. I disagree on that line of thinking. When I drive on the track, I ALWAYS downshift while the streering wheel is still pointed straight.
-Z
11-14-2002, 04:51 PM
#11
Race Director
I also trail brake quite frequently. I always try to get the downshift done before I start turning.
This is my typical procedue.
Enter Braking zone..
Swift Roll on to brakes
Heel-n-Toe down shift
Begin to release brake pedal pressure
Start Turning
Reduce brake pedal pressure to match added steering input
Release brake
Full Turn
Accelerate out.
There is one turn where I have down shifted in the "turn" However my car is not actually turning at the time since I have effectively set-up a straight line braking zone where I can downshift. Then I can continue turning.
For me downshifting takes a very short time (1 sec) and I also use the higher RPM of he lower gear to effectivly help the car brake. While I always attempt to match the speed so I do not use too much clutch, the higher RPM of the engine can affor more engine compression braking thus helping to stabilize the car. Therefore I idealy want to do it when I am looking for maximum braking rather than in a corner.
This is my typical procedue.
Enter Braking zone..
Swift Roll on to brakes
Heel-n-Toe down shift
Begin to release brake pedal pressure
Start Turning
Reduce brake pedal pressure to match added steering input
Release brake
Full Turn
Accelerate out.
There is one turn where I have down shifted in the "turn" However my car is not actually turning at the time since I have effectively set-up a straight line braking zone where I can downshift. Then I can continue turning.
For me downshifting takes a very short time (1 sec) and I also use the higher RPM of he lower gear to effectivly help the car brake. While I always attempt to match the speed so I do not use too much clutch, the higher RPM of the engine can affor more engine compression braking thus helping to stabilize the car. Therefore I idealy want to do it when I am looking for maximum braking rather than in a corner.
11-15-2002, 09:50 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
I have raced at Memphis, St Louis, Blackhawk, IRP,Putnam Park, Mosport, Gingerman, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Daytona, Roebling Road, Charlotte, Taladega Grand Prix and probably a couple more. I can think of no place where it is necessary to shift while in a corner. If you shift, you have to be steering with one hand, and that's not a good idea in a corner. But the main reason, is WHY would you want to?
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
11-15-2002, 04:18 PM
#14
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I'm w/ Pete + Bill... you should be back on the gas by then... Generally should be able to get your downshift(s) done while threshold braking on the way in... Upshifts could be done on track out, but (except for long corners) often you'll end up faster by staying in the higher gear through the corner...
11-15-2002, 04:51 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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I agree when it comes to downshifting, however upshifting is a different story. Turn 1/2 at VIR, for example, I downshift going in and get back on the throttle as soon as I can. I run out of revs before the track out point, so I upshift to 3rd while still in the corner.
If I wait until I'm out of the corner, the car is on the rev limiter for several seconds. I also do a 2nd to 3rd upshift between 5 and 5a, but the car is briefly straight there, so it's not really in a corner.
Karl
If I wait until I'm out of the corner, the car is on the rev limiter for several seconds. I also do a 2nd to 3rd upshift between 5 and 5a, but the car is briefly straight there, so it's not really in a corner.
Karl