Alan Herod

Based on another recent thread comments, there are differing views on the definition of 10/10ths. I'm not sure that it is important, but it is helpful to understand where others are coming from. As I mentioned on the other thread, I view it as a system of systems, which means that I don't view it based on lap time. Pick an arbitrary 1:30 lap time as a perfect race qualifying lap in car x would that be 10/10ths? I don't see it that way. 10/10ths for instructor x might be 1:32 and instructor y might be 1:36; while for a beginner, first track day, new car, it might be 2:15. What is your definition? I don't think we are dealing with absolutes, and there is probably no wrong answer.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

ninefiveone

My definition is that at 10/10ths any error will result in an off track excursion. A driver at 10/10ths could not get any more out of themselves or the car.

GhettoRacer

there's the driver's ability, and the car's potential...

after a driver is experienced enough, he/she should be able to take at least the car they're familiar with to the limit. how much they can drive a car they're not familiar with... that's very debatable.

to ninefiveone:

[quote]My definition is that at 10/10ths any error will result in an off track excursion.<hr></blockquote>

I'll have to disagree with that... if that were true than people racing would be going off and spinning all the times. Going over 10/10th doesn't necessarily mean going out of control; it could be call over driving. Too much sliding would result in slower lap times.

Z-man

Interesting points, Alan.

I'm currently reading a book: "Inner Speed Secrets" by Ross Bently. In the first chapter, he addresses this whole theory of driving your best.

His conclusions were:
1. Driving 10/10ths is driver specific.
2. The 10/10ths ability is a dynamic figure, not a static one.

His example was: a typical driver's 10/10th's is probably comparable to Michael Schumacher's 7/10ths. However, as the typical driver improves, his 10/10ths can improve to M. Schumacher's 9/10ths, or greater.

Bentley also states that one should NOT focus on the results when measuring ability.

-Z.

M758

To me 10/10th is just that 100%.

This 100% of your driving skill which means you are on the VERY limit of what you and the car can do. It nothing to do with absolute lap times as conditions will have huge impact on this.

What it means is that is not possible for the given driver in a given car on a given day to go any faster. Attempting to go faster will result in either going slower or going off-track.

To me 10/10ths is only appropriate in a one lap time trial or qualifying situation. The driver must feel like even the slighest error will either cost him time or control of the car.

If we look a race drivers I feel the even M Schumacher goes 10/10th a maximum of 4 times during any GP weekend. These would be on Each of his 4 qualifying laps. He may infact only go 10/10ths on 3 or even two of the 4 since an error may cost him the car and he may chose to get a lap in the bank at 9.9/10ths just make sure he is at least close to the front.

I beleve sprint races are run at 9.5/10 to 9.9/10ths. Since any screw-up can cost you more than what is gained by that extro 1/100th of second you gain from going 10/10ths.

I feel long endurace races like LeMans, Sebring, Daytona are run at 8/10 to 9/10 for much of the event to minimize the risk of a major incident on the track or mechanically with the car.

To me DE should never be run more than 8/10th to 9/10th even with very experieced drivers simply because there is too much risk and not enough reward. Even so the desire to get faster and better should present, but need to drive at very limit is not.

Autocross however is very uniqe in that I feel you need to drive at 11/10th to very fast. This does imply more than 100%, but I think that is the way it feels to driver who is familier with the big track since things must happen very quickly and risks of errors are so low. To expericed dedicated Autocrossers I feel that they would call this 10/10ths, but driving like this on big track to very dangerious in my opinion due to much higer speeds and greater risk of car damage and injury.

Geo

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>To me 10/10th is just that 100%.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly. Zero margin for error.

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>To me 10/10ths is only appropriate in a one lap time trial or qualifying situation. The driver must feel like even the slighest error will either cost him time or control of the car.

If we look a race drivers I feel the even M Schumacher goes 10/10th a maximum of 4 times during any GP weekend. These would be on Each of his 4 qualifying laps. He may infact only go 10/10ths on 3 or even two of the 4 since an error may cost him the car and he may chose to get a lap in the bank at 9.9/10ths just make sure he is at least close to the front.

I beleve sprint races are run at 9.5/10 to 9.9/10ths. Since any screw-up can cost you more than what is gained by that extro 1/100th of second you gain from going 10/10ths. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly right. It doesn't even make sense for a racing driver to drive at 10/10ths except for one situation....

If you say tried to drive at 11/10ths for one corner and spun, and the field has left you in their dust. And you are not driving for points (through the first 3/4 of the season). And you are not driving for money, or at least maximizing your winnings, but rather are driving for absolute best finishing position, or are driving for points and are desperate for max points to improve or protect your standings, only then might I drive 10/10ths because I have nothing to lose by doing so. But, if I'm at least in the hunt, I'm probably going to drive at 9.7+/10ths because everyone gets something wrong.

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>To me DE should never be run more than 8/10th to 9/10th even with very experieced drivers simply because there is too much risk and not enough reward. Even so the desire to get faster and better should present, but need to drive at very limit is not.

Autocross however is very uniqe in that I feel you need to drive at 11/10th to very fast. This does imply more than 100%, but I think that is the way it feels to driver who is familier with the big track since things must happen very quickly and risks of errors are so low. To expericed dedicated Autocrossers I feel that they would call this 10/10ths, but driving like this on big track to very dangerious in my opinion due to much higer speeds and greater risk of car damage and injury.</strong><hr></blockquote>
M758: Well said! Especially the DE / autox part! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
At DE's, when I'm out there, I know that I have holding a little back, especially on the last run of the event! Most people feel they need to keep improving until the end: I think it's better to ease off and enjoy the last laps: I'm worn out, I've overloaded with learning, and too many people wreck their car on the last run of the day.

10/10th's is more of a mental thing than a result.
-Z.

txhedg

I think that 8 to 9/10ths in an enduro is even high sometimes....

watch the ALMS and see how these guys dont even come close to getting to track-out at the exit from many of the corners......they are obviously not pushing the limits....consistency is more important than being on the ragged edge.

Watching the 24 hr N'ring enduro last wkend was very enlightening....based on lines driven, and the significant "extra" most of the cars seemed to have at their disposal when passing the ford focus and honda "rolling chicanes", IMHO it seemed that 7 -8/10ths was about right. Even for professionals, I can't imagine driving anywhere near 10/10ths for 2.5 hrs at a time.

Racing school (russell at Sears) for me was one of the times I really felt comfortable going 10/10ths........as part of the paying the fee for the school, they gave you a "mulligan" on the car, in that the first wreck cost you nothing (......a bit early on the turn-in sir, a shame about hitting that tire wall, here's another car, and if you wreck this one it will cost you $500, be more carefull)...for the record they did NOT have to say this to ME, but its how the discussion goes from what I hear.

Driving full bore (10/10) for 30 minutes is mentally very draining, as you realize that ANY tiny mistake could result in bent metal/bodily harm. I know I have never truly driven 10/10th in any of my own cars on the track even for 1 lap......there were always places where I held back a bit due to knowing the $$ and potentially bodily consequences of pushing it too far. You always keep extending the "point" that represents 10/10, but a never felt like I was at a point where there wasn't a *bit* more left if I wanted to go after it. At the amateur level, driving 10/10ths in a any car (including a loaned student's car...but thats another thread )where you couldn't (1)walk away from a total loss on the car with the attitude of "bummer, but thats the breaks and the $$ cost is unimportant and easily covered by me", and (2) are comfortable that a full-tilt off would have a VERY low probability of resulting in potential bodily harm seems crazy to me. jm $0.02

JC in NY

"10/10's" is more of a feeling than anything tangible. It is a racer's euphemism for driving to the peak of one's own ability.

It doesn't mean you're the fastest guy out there. If you drove "10/10's" yet still did not win then your next line is that something was wrong with your car.

GhettoRacer

And keep in mind when I said I drove 10/10th... 10/10th in an underpowered momentum car like the Honda Civic (135 crank hp, 2300 lbs with driver) is a lot easier than say 10/10th in a 993. I'm flat out a lot.

Very rarely (2-3 times) do I drive other people's car to the limit and certainly it was with their approval and they were riding along.

I've been driving 10/10th in my own car for the last year at over 60 track days. I've never spun. I've had a handful of two wheels off, and I've gone four wheels off 3-4 times. I'm very aggressive on the brakes, and sometimes I overshoot my braking point (and sometimes a little pad fade, force me to take a controlled 4 wheel off. I've never put myself, or anyone else close to danger.

There are serious DE's where even a tire screech is considered driving too hard. For example once I got black flagged in my friend's NSX because we were on Kumho Ecasta 712's and they're noisy as hell when you drive them hard. The car was never out of shape, but because the tire was screaming at every turn they told me I was too aggressive for their school. I was not tail gating or doing any wild passes neither. It was all because of tire noise.

Then, there are open track events (where everyone drives near the limit) and even time trial such as the Speed Ventures events. They've got some fast/good drivers there and certainly everyone knows what they're doing.

Going fast doesn't automatically mean it's dangerous.

GhettoRacer

[quote]
Racing school (russell at Sears) for me was one of the times I really felt comfortable going 10/10ths........as part of the paying the fee for the school, they gave you a "mulligan" on the car, in that the first wreck cost you nothing (......a bit early on the turn-in Mr Swank, a shame about hitting that tire wall, here's another car, and if you wreck this one it will cost you $500, be more carefull)...for the record they did NOT have to say this to ME, but its how the discussion goes from what I hear.

[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Cost nothing on the 1st wreck? Are you positive? (their course description seems to state you're responsible for most damages) That's pretty cool... how long ago did you take the course?

txhedg

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>

Cost nothing on the 1st wreck? Are you positive? (their course description seems to state you're responsible for most damages) That's pretty cool... how long ago did you take the course?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm positive....in the Techniques of Racing 3 day program I took a yr ago, the first damage event is free, the 2nd damage event you are capped at $500 (i think) liability, and the 3rd damage event (if you are hard headed enough to make it that far) is unlimited liability for car damage.

In the Advanced Racing 3 day class (the Techniques class is usually a pre-req for Advanced)there is either a high ($5k) or no limit of you damage liability.

OT, but A REALLY funny story regarding that......I attended the Russell school with several friends, two of us had a good bit of track experience, the rest had none. We talked to Russell about 2of us "testing" out of the Techniques class and going right to the Advanced class, but decided we wanted to keep our group together since the point was to have a fun trip for the group of 6 guys. BUT, there was some other guy in the group from somewhere in CA that answered ALL the questions (brown nose style) in the classroom, and talked loudly about his "racing" experience in SCCA Solo II events. In his "race prepped" (he had upgraded the pads and put different shocks in) Dodge Intrepid. Ok, dude, so you do autoX in your grandmother's 4 door luxo cruiser???? I swear I am not making this up.

This geek proceeds to talk his way into the Advanced class (past me and another guy who have much more track experience, and actually drive and own full-blown race cars, plus another kid who was the west coast's under 16 shifter kart champ and turned out to be FAS).

We say, good, he was a PITA to have in our group anyway. He still is running his mouth about his racing experience, and how much better the advanced class cars are, etc.

On the last day we hear someone in the advnaced class has wadded up one of the cars, and think, bummer, since there is not the mulligan rule in Advanced. At the end of the day we go into the office to buy a t-shirt or something and see the solo II intrepid driver looking sad, and writing a check (for supposedly about $5k). He was the one who wadded up the Advanced car. And he probably didn't have the $5k to spare, as he was the only dude in the whole school of 50 who would sit in the parking lot at lunch eating PB&J because he said he was trying to save money vs ordering a burger at the snack bar. I guess the intrepid autoX experience wasn't as tranferrable to long-track formula cars as he thought. Serves him right for his attitude. And people think p-car drivers are arrogant.

sorry for the long story, but it was so funny at the time we laughed our ***** off almost all the way back to SanFran.

Dodge Intrepid "Race Car" <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

PS - Come to think of it Ghetto, I think there was a traqquest instructor in my class....Mike maybe? drove a black or dark blue Supra TT? younger kid, maybe late 20's. ask him if he remembers the intrepid racer....he may not know about the crash, since we found out at the very end.....I swear we almost pissed our pants we were laughing so hard.

Geoffrey

My bottom line from all of GhettoRacer's posts is that in my opinion he does not have the mental attitude that I would expect a seasoned instructor to have. Additionally, the difference between a Honda Civic and a Porsche 911, especially a turbo, are so different, I would not let him anywhere near my car. There are just too many good instructors out there to choose from.

Karl S

[quote]Originally posted by txhedg:
<strong> In the Advanced Racing 3 day class (the Techniques class is usually a pre-req for Advanced)there is either a high ($5k) or no limit of you damage liability.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When I took the Advanced class at Russell two years ago, the price of the class included insurance on the car with a $2500 deductible. So you paid for the first $2500 of damage for each incident - no freebies. I spun and went over a curb which damaged the side pod. Cost me $750 for a new one. Others who damaged cars ended up paying between $500 - $1000, but we didn't have any one who totaled one.

Karl

RSAErick

I personally don't think that it is possible for anyone to drive at 10/10ths for any significant amount of time without making a mistake. To be able to do so, would to be perfect. Shumacher may be close, but I would guess that even with his extraordinary training, he probably drives 9+/10's most all of the time.

Maybe GhettoRacer is more gifted than we give him credit for!?!?

Erick