What is 10/10ths?
12-06-2002, 11:36 PM
#31
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[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>
Slower than who? You? In the *same* exact car? I'd like to see what you turn on 712's. I've never said I can drive the NSX to the limit. IMO it is a car that's hard catch perfectly after you go beyond the limit. It was one of my best friend's car I was driving, thus I drive it liberally. I've spun it many times while practice drifting and trying to kill the Kumho's on purpose.
That's not what the head of the pitlane said. I asked him why the black flag, he just said you're making lot of tire noise and we're afriad you'll lose it. If anyone has driven on Kumho Ecasta 712's I'm sure they can attest to their sound quality.
Lets see, are you some person with red NSX?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You see Frank, this isn't about whether I am faster - nice try at diverting attention away from your creative inperpretation of the truth. How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment? The point is that you are, at best, stretching the truth (at worst it is called something else) when you claim you don't spin. You like to change the facts when it suits you and you just don't understand what kind of impression you leave here.
As far as the Black Flag - I bet it is not the first time you weren't told all the details about a situation. Tire noise had nothing to do with it, according to the organizers and apparently heard by almost everyone else at the event, except you. Again, you have a different reality than everyone else. And yes, I have driven a red NSX a couple of times, but I don't own one and don't drive one very often.
By the way, I really got a chuckle out of your mid ohio turn by turn description. You again come across like you think you are the world's expert, but you have managed to miss every single subtlety and important reference of that track. I hope no one actually tries to use your description of how to drive that track, or any other if you do the same interpretation. Kind of like your tree discussion about the corkscrew - never mind what every other instructor and almost every pro racer thinks the line is and the reference points are, Frank knows better.
<strong>
Slower than who? You? In the *same* exact car? I'd like to see what you turn on 712's. I've never said I can drive the NSX to the limit. IMO it is a car that's hard catch perfectly after you go beyond the limit. It was one of my best friend's car I was driving, thus I drive it liberally. I've spun it many times while practice drifting and trying to kill the Kumho's on purpose.
That's not what the head of the pitlane said. I asked him why the black flag, he just said you're making lot of tire noise and we're afriad you'll lose it. If anyone has driven on Kumho Ecasta 712's I'm sure they can attest to their sound quality.
Lets see, are you some person with red NSX?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You see Frank, this isn't about whether I am faster - nice try at diverting attention away from your creative inperpretation of the truth. How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment? The point is that you are, at best, stretching the truth (at worst it is called something else) when you claim you don't spin. You like to change the facts when it suits you and you just don't understand what kind of impression you leave here.
As far as the Black Flag - I bet it is not the first time you weren't told all the details about a situation. Tire noise had nothing to do with it, according to the organizers and apparently heard by almost everyone else at the event, except you. Again, you have a different reality than everyone else. And yes, I have driven a red NSX a couple of times, but I don't own one and don't drive one very often.
By the way, I really got a chuckle out of your mid ohio turn by turn description. You again come across like you think you are the world's expert, but you have managed to miss every single subtlety and important reference of that track. I hope no one actually tries to use your description of how to drive that track, or any other if you do the same interpretation. Kind of like your tree discussion about the corkscrew - never mind what every other instructor and almost every pro racer thinks the line is and the reference points are, Frank knows better.
12-06-2002, 11:48 PM
#33
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>
You see Frank, this isn't about whether I am faster - nice try at diverting attention away from your creative inperpretation of the truth. How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment? The point is that you are, at best, stretching the truth (at worst it is called something else) when you claim you don't spin. You like to change the facts when it suits you and you just don't understand what kind of impression you leave here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, it was the truth. I said I've never spun in my own car. I have indeed spin in other cars. Who are you? Since you want to talk facts, please clarify who's driving what car 10 seconds faster. The car I drove was a NSX w/Comptech 6 psi SC (not running well). Suspension bone stock except for H&R springs. Tires were Kumho Ecasta 712 (street tires, don't confuse with V700). The laps were 2:14.x (I have datalog of the session). So who's turning 2:04.x? That's pretty damn fast, as far as Hayashi's site goes, it says Hardee/Allan ran 2:04.661 on their full race NSX. I'd like to know who else is that quick.
[quote]<strong>
As far as the Black Flag - I bet it is not the first time you weren't told all the details about a situation. Tire noise had nothing to do with it, according to the organizers and apparently heard by almost everyone else at the event, except you. Again, you have a different reality than everyone else. And yes, I have driven a red NSX a couple of times, but I don't own one and don't drive one very often.</strong><hr></blockquote>
All I heard was they were complaining about tire noise. If there was more, why would they not tell me?
[quote]<strong>
By the way, I really got a chuckle out of your mid ohio turn by turn description. You again come across like you think you are the world's expert, but you have managed to miss every single subtlety and important reference of that track. I hope no one actually tries to use your description of how to drive that track, or any other if you do the same interpretation. Kind of like your tree discussion about the corkscrew - never mind what every other instructor and almost every pro racer thinks the line is and the reference points are, Frank knows better.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said I was the best. I just share what little I know. It's always FWIW, and YMMV. I prefer to keep all reference on track. That's all.
<strong>
You see Frank, this isn't about whether I am faster - nice try at diverting attention away from your creative inperpretation of the truth. How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment? The point is that you are, at best, stretching the truth (at worst it is called something else) when you claim you don't spin. You like to change the facts when it suits you and you just don't understand what kind of impression you leave here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, it was the truth. I said I've never spun in my own car. I have indeed spin in other cars. Who are you? Since you want to talk facts, please clarify who's driving what car 10 seconds faster. The car I drove was a NSX w/Comptech 6 psi SC (not running well). Suspension bone stock except for H&R springs. Tires were Kumho Ecasta 712 (street tires, don't confuse with V700). The laps were 2:14.x (I have datalog of the session). So who's turning 2:04.x? That's pretty damn fast, as far as Hayashi's site goes, it says Hardee/Allan ran 2:04.661 on their full race NSX. I'd like to know who else is that quick.
[quote]<strong>
As far as the Black Flag - I bet it is not the first time you weren't told all the details about a situation. Tire noise had nothing to do with it, according to the organizers and apparently heard by almost everyone else at the event, except you. Again, you have a different reality than everyone else. And yes, I have driven a red NSX a couple of times, but I don't own one and don't drive one very often.</strong><hr></blockquote>
All I heard was they were complaining about tire noise. If there was more, why would they not tell me?
[quote]<strong>
By the way, I really got a chuckle out of your mid ohio turn by turn description. You again come across like you think you are the world's expert, but you have managed to miss every single subtlety and important reference of that track. I hope no one actually tries to use your description of how to drive that track, or any other if you do the same interpretation. Kind of like your tree discussion about the corkscrew - never mind what every other instructor and almost every pro racer thinks the line is and the reference points are, Frank knows better.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said I was the best. I just share what little I know. It's always FWIW, and YMMV. I prefer to keep all reference on track. That's all.
12-06-2002, 11:59 PM
#34
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[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>
I've been driving 10/10th in my own car for the last year at over 60 track days. I've never spun.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is what you said. You very carefully danced around the truth and bent that truth to the point of breaking. You try to imply a skill level that isn't there. Now, only after I call you out on the truth, do you admit to having spun. Let me remind you again that you said "I've never spun".
So now I guess we go back to that other thread. Let's see, you have never spun your car but you have spun other people's cars. Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?
Your turn - shall we try yet another version of the truth according to Frank?
<strong>
I've been driving 10/10th in my own car for the last year at over 60 track days. I've never spun.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is what you said. You very carefully danced around the truth and bent that truth to the point of breaking. You try to imply a skill level that isn't there. Now, only after I call you out on the truth, do you admit to having spun. Let me remind you again that you said "I've never spun".
So now I guess we go back to that other thread. Let's see, you have never spun your car but you have spun other people's cars. Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?
Your turn - shall we try yet another version of the truth according to Frank?
12-07-2002, 12:37 AM
#35
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[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>
This is what you said. You very carefully danced around the truth and bent that truth to the point of breaking. You try to imply a skill level that isn't there. Now, only after I call you out on the truth, do you admit to having spun. Let me remind you again that you said "I've never spun".
So now I guess we go back to that other thread. Let's see, you have never spun your car but you have spun other people's cars. Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?
Your turn - shall we try yet another version of the truth according to Frank?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I have spun a few times, just not in my own car.
996 GT3 Cup @ Thunderhill test day (Sorry Charles! wasn't warned slicks takes more than 1 lap to warm up. i decided to pick up a little speed entering T3 (off camber right) on 2nd lap. the tail came around faster than anything I've experienced. I countered (Cup car has limited steering angle) only initial, and didn't get on the gas, when I got on the gas a split second later, the rear end was way out already. i contemplated for a split second about riding the drift out but i decided a controlled spin was a better way to go. I simply back off the throttle and move the steering wheel straight. I did a controlled 180 spin, kept the car on track, did not stall, and drove on. did couple of really good warm up laps, and got some decent laps in, and finished the session... this was on a open test day. not a DE.)
I looped the above SC'ed NSX many times on a track day, practicing drifting at Streets of Willows. Again, the spins are controlled, if you can believe that. This is where I learn NSX handling is tricky at the limit. No wonder Japanese drifters don't use the NSX.
The biggest spin I've had, in my bud's NSX. It was @ a UnlimitedLaps event @ Thunderhill. Near end of the day, had lots of good seat time in the car. Going fast into T2, rear end steps out. Through out the day I just add a touch of throttle to balance it. But this time I decided to test my skills and I induced power oversteer. Eventually it was 90 deg side ways and to bring it back (and risk big tank slapping) was not worth it. I let it go, and kept the car going straight backwards. Didn't keep on track this time tho. I straighened the steering wheel and was able to get on the brakes before going off track. Off track speed ~20 mph. Not a scratch.
I looped my sister's BMW 323Ci a few times, again, practicing drifting/car control @ Streets of Willows. This car is much easier to control, and I learn to do the fancy faint drifts with it...
Other than that, there were few 4 wheel off's.
MR2 Spyder @ Sears Point @ T4 (4 wheel drift to the outside, too much steering correction) the cause of initial oversteer, too aggressive under braking (trail braked into the turn)
Another friend's NSX @ Thunderhill T14. 4 wheels off. Brake just a tad too late into T14. The safe thing would've been to extend the straight line braking zone, and do a slow turn in. But I decided to to a hard turn in (front end was loaded a lot from some trail brake), rear end stepped out, caught it right away... corner load still high, rear end step out again, caught it, but overcorrected by few degress (so no fish tail, but now pointed slightly outside). Instead of trying to save it again and risking tank slapping, I decided to go straight off since it had plenty of run off room. In the process, hit a cone @ ~15 mph. No scratch on car.
A friend's Civic HB hybrid, at a very wet ButtonWillow. Coming into sunset (going CW) underbraking, the car does not have ABS. Locked it up just a tad, car was close to right edge of track. The lockup cause the car to pull right slightly, and once into the mud it was gone... dirty little mud bath.
My yellow Civic, at last TracQuest @ BW (#1 CW), I went four wheel off going into sunset twice. I couldn't find any good braking reference and brokek too late twice, simply go straight line four wheel off. didn't even bring any dirt on track.
So here you go, my complete 4 wheel off and spin history of last 1.5 years. Yes I do spin. But all the spin I induced the oversteer by choice, and I picked the area with safe run off. The 4 wheel off's shows I don't have enough car control skills. Out of 60+ track days, in easily over 240 seperate sessions.
Happy with the details?? Now, who are you?
<strong>
This is what you said. You very carefully danced around the truth and bent that truth to the point of breaking. You try to imply a skill level that isn't there. Now, only after I call you out on the truth, do you admit to having spun. Let me remind you again that you said "I've never spun".
So now I guess we go back to that other thread. Let's see, you have never spun your car but you have spun other people's cars. Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?
Your turn - shall we try yet another version of the truth according to Frank?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I have spun a few times, just not in my own car.
996 GT3 Cup @ Thunderhill test day (Sorry Charles! wasn't warned slicks takes more than 1 lap to warm up. i decided to pick up a little speed entering T3 (off camber right) on 2nd lap. the tail came around faster than anything I've experienced. I countered (Cup car has limited steering angle) only initial, and didn't get on the gas, when I got on the gas a split second later, the rear end was way out already. i contemplated for a split second about riding the drift out but i decided a controlled spin was a better way to go. I simply back off the throttle and move the steering wheel straight. I did a controlled 180 spin, kept the car on track, did not stall, and drove on. did couple of really good warm up laps, and got some decent laps in, and finished the session... this was on a open test day. not a DE.)
I looped the above SC'ed NSX many times on a track day, practicing drifting at Streets of Willows. Again, the spins are controlled, if you can believe that. This is where I learn NSX handling is tricky at the limit. No wonder Japanese drifters don't use the NSX.
The biggest spin I've had, in my bud's NSX. It was @ a UnlimitedLaps event @ Thunderhill. Near end of the day, had lots of good seat time in the car. Going fast into T2, rear end steps out. Through out the day I just add a touch of throttle to balance it. But this time I decided to test my skills and I induced power oversteer. Eventually it was 90 deg side ways and to bring it back (and risk big tank slapping) was not worth it. I let it go, and kept the car going straight backwards. Didn't keep on track this time tho. I straighened the steering wheel and was able to get on the brakes before going off track. Off track speed ~20 mph. Not a scratch.
I looped my sister's BMW 323Ci a few times, again, practicing drifting/car control @ Streets of Willows. This car is much easier to control, and I learn to do the fancy faint drifts with it...
Other than that, there were few 4 wheel off's.
MR2 Spyder @ Sears Point @ T4 (4 wheel drift to the outside, too much steering correction) the cause of initial oversteer, too aggressive under braking (trail braked into the turn)
Another friend's NSX @ Thunderhill T14. 4 wheels off. Brake just a tad too late into T14. The safe thing would've been to extend the straight line braking zone, and do a slow turn in. But I decided to to a hard turn in (front end was loaded a lot from some trail brake), rear end stepped out, caught it right away... corner load still high, rear end step out again, caught it, but overcorrected by few degress (so no fish tail, but now pointed slightly outside). Instead of trying to save it again and risking tank slapping, I decided to go straight off since it had plenty of run off room. In the process, hit a cone @ ~15 mph. No scratch on car.
A friend's Civic HB hybrid, at a very wet ButtonWillow. Coming into sunset (going CW) underbraking, the car does not have ABS. Locked it up just a tad, car was close to right edge of track. The lockup cause the car to pull right slightly, and once into the mud it was gone... dirty little mud bath.
My yellow Civic, at last TracQuest @ BW (#1 CW), I went four wheel off going into sunset twice. I couldn't find any good braking reference and brokek too late twice, simply go straight line four wheel off. didn't even bring any dirt on track.
So here you go, my complete 4 wheel off and spin history of last 1.5 years. Yes I do spin. But all the spin I induced the oversteer by choice, and I picked the area with safe run off. The 4 wheel off's shows I don't have enough car control skills. Out of 60+ track days, in easily over 240 seperate sessions.
Happy with the details?? Now, who are you?
12-07-2002, 12:51 AM
#36
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Setup the car to have a very good turn in (to carry as much speed as possible), get on the gas to accelerate out and plant the rear... and then the waiting game begins... No?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know what you're waiting for, but in many corners I'm hard on the throttle through the apex, but that depends upon the corner.
Please explain what you are waiting for.
With a FWD car, they tend to reward heavy trail braking and as such, you tend to be later on the brakes and earlier on the throttle than the classic style with a RWD car. RWD cars can be set up to trail brake, but they tend to be trickier to do so.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>My car has pretty decent rotation and I'm on the gas well before the apex...
I wouldn't call a good turn in rotation a powerslide. Ask the drifting crowd if powerslide is possible on FWD, they will always say us FWD cars are just *** draggers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, first of all, drifting (as defined by the drifiting crowd) has little to do with driving quickly around a race track.
Secondly, I'm not talking about turn-in. You still want some oversteer to be fast (at least for my driving style). You actually can set up a FWD car to rotate. You just have to think much differently from a RWD car. The driving style is different and the set-up is very different. Current practice with the Speed Touring Cars is to use ungodly spring rates in the rear to make the car rotate. We haven't done this yet, but we will. Still, even without this I've had our SE-R rotate quite well. As I said, if I did not get hard on the throttle (transfering load to the rear) it would have spun. It required some late, hard trail-braking, but it was clearly four wheel drifting.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>PS, how does the SER fare in ITS?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pretty well actually. We and others are still developing our cars. One has finally won in ITS and at The Glen of all places. It's a really good handling car, good power, and other than the E36 Bimmer, probably the best torque in the field. We typically pass 3-5 or so cars at the start without trying (before the first turn) at TWS. My company is coming out with some hard-core development parts for it in the next year. We hope to have race struts and spherical bearings on the car before my next race in January. It's pretty on par with the 944 in ITS (which I am building for my own car). Equally prepared they seem to be pretty equally matched. Truth of the matter is, I think the SE-R has more potential. It has more to squeeze out of it. But, I'm going to take up the challenge with my 944 anyway. I have some ideas that nobody seems to have even tried with the 944.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>what is the required min. raceweight for SER?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
2445 vs 2715 for the 944. I think the 944 has been classed with too much weight, but I knew that going into this deal.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>we used to have a G20, which is same chassis as SER but with longer wheelbase.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it's pretty similar, but not the same. I have one of each for road cars. The G20 has a modified double wishbone and significantly stiffer chassis.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>until Integra Type-R's came out, the G20 held the best handling FWD car spot for quite a few years.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I love the G20 and every SE-R owner I know who has bought one has loved it too. It's heavier than the SE-R, but feels lighter on the track. It's much easier to place on the track and rotates better, but that's almost certainly because the SE-R has a flexi-flyer rear end. I've had my G20 on the track at Motorsports Ranch and the Summit Point Jeff Circuit (both before I installed the turbo engine). It has fantastic track manners and is very confidence inspiring to drive.
I've never driven my 944 and can't wait to get it finished. I've got to get the cage in and then get a job so I can actually have something resembling a budget again.
It'll be interesting to compare. I haven't driven a RWD car in anger in 13 years. I'll probably take it to a PCA DE for my first time out to get some advice from instructors who have plenty of experience with the car. I'll have a steep learning curve and want to get up it as soon as possible.
<strong>Setup the car to have a very good turn in (to carry as much speed as possible), get on the gas to accelerate out and plant the rear... and then the waiting game begins... No?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know what you're waiting for, but in many corners I'm hard on the throttle through the apex, but that depends upon the corner.
Please explain what you are waiting for.
With a FWD car, they tend to reward heavy trail braking and as such, you tend to be later on the brakes and earlier on the throttle than the classic style with a RWD car. RWD cars can be set up to trail brake, but they tend to be trickier to do so.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>My car has pretty decent rotation and I'm on the gas well before the apex...
I wouldn't call a good turn in rotation a powerslide. Ask the drifting crowd if powerslide is possible on FWD, they will always say us FWD cars are just *** draggers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, first of all, drifting (as defined by the drifiting crowd) has little to do with driving quickly around a race track.
Secondly, I'm not talking about turn-in. You still want some oversteer to be fast (at least for my driving style). You actually can set up a FWD car to rotate. You just have to think much differently from a RWD car. The driving style is different and the set-up is very different. Current practice with the Speed Touring Cars is to use ungodly spring rates in the rear to make the car rotate. We haven't done this yet, but we will. Still, even without this I've had our SE-R rotate quite well. As I said, if I did not get hard on the throttle (transfering load to the rear) it would have spun. It required some late, hard trail-braking, but it was clearly four wheel drifting.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>PS, how does the SER fare in ITS?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pretty well actually. We and others are still developing our cars. One has finally won in ITS and at The Glen of all places. It's a really good handling car, good power, and other than the E36 Bimmer, probably the best torque in the field. We typically pass 3-5 or so cars at the start without trying (before the first turn) at TWS. My company is coming out with some hard-core development parts for it in the next year. We hope to have race struts and spherical bearings on the car before my next race in January. It's pretty on par with the 944 in ITS (which I am building for my own car). Equally prepared they seem to be pretty equally matched. Truth of the matter is, I think the SE-R has more potential. It has more to squeeze out of it. But, I'm going to take up the challenge with my 944 anyway. I have some ideas that nobody seems to have even tried with the 944.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>what is the required min. raceweight for SER?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
2445 vs 2715 for the 944. I think the 944 has been classed with too much weight, but I knew that going into this deal.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>we used to have a G20, which is same chassis as SER but with longer wheelbase.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it's pretty similar, but not the same. I have one of each for road cars. The G20 has a modified double wishbone and significantly stiffer chassis.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>until Integra Type-R's came out, the G20 held the best handling FWD car spot for quite a few years.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I love the G20 and every SE-R owner I know who has bought one has loved it too. It's heavier than the SE-R, but feels lighter on the track. It's much easier to place on the track and rotates better, but that's almost certainly because the SE-R has a flexi-flyer rear end. I've had my G20 on the track at Motorsports Ranch and the Summit Point Jeff Circuit (both before I installed the turbo engine). It has fantastic track manners and is very confidence inspiring to drive.
I've never driven my 944 and can't wait to get it finished. I've got to get the cage in and then get a job so I can actually have something resembling a budget again.
It'll be interesting to compare. I haven't driven a RWD car in anger in 13 years. I'll probably take it to a PCA DE for my first time out to get some advice from instructors who have plenty of experience with the car. I'll have a steep learning curve and want to get up it as soon as possible.
12-07-2002, 01:00 AM
#37
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You said that you answered my questions, but that just isn't true. I asked -
"Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?"
Earlier I asked -
"How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment?"
You go out of your way to answer questions I didn't ask but you are avoiding the hard ones I did ask. I can see that will continue so I am wasting my time here. I have a plane to catch for Fla early tomorrow. The rest of you have fun with Frank's reality.
"Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?"
Earlier I asked -
"How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment?"
You go out of your way to answer questions I didn't ask but you are avoiding the hard ones I did ask. I can see that will continue so I am wasting my time here. I have a plane to catch for Fla early tomorrow. The rest of you have fun with Frank's reality.
12-07-2002, 01:02 AM
#38
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>
Yeah, I love the G20 and every SE-R owner I know who has bought one has loved it too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I go way back on the early SE-R days...
[quote]<strong>
2445 vs 2715 for the 944. I think the 944 has been classed with too much weight, but I knew that going into this deal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
WOW. That's a lot of weight for the 944. Is the SER able to get close to current ITS record times?
[quote]<strong>
I've never driven my 944 and can't wait to get it finished. I've got to get the cage in and then get a job so I can actually have something resembling a budget again. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Should be awesome. I've had a few laps in a non turbo 944, it's an impressive handling car. Lots of interesting ITS reading from ARRC results recently ehh? ITS seems like one of the more expensive IT class.
FWD Honda's have a strong rear spring bias... fronts are 600-800 and rear are 900-1200 lbs/"! What rates are you working with on the SER? What's the motion ratio and/or wheel rates? I've never took a closer look. SER is a awesome fun track car. I'm not sure if'd to well against good ITS cars though...
Roger Foo wanted to turn my del Sol into ITS car. He thinks we (well, he... ) can set some lap records with the car...
<strong>
Yeah, I love the G20 and every SE-R owner I know who has bought one has loved it too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I go way back on the early SE-R days...
[quote]<strong>
2445 vs 2715 for the 944. I think the 944 has been classed with too much weight, but I knew that going into this deal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
WOW. That's a lot of weight for the 944. Is the SER able to get close to current ITS record times?
[quote]<strong>
I've never driven my 944 and can't wait to get it finished. I've got to get the cage in and then get a job so I can actually have something resembling a budget again.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Should be awesome. I've had a few laps in a non turbo 944, it's an impressive handling car. Lots of interesting ITS reading from ARRC results recently ehh? ITS seems like one of the more expensive IT class.
FWD Honda's have a strong rear spring bias... fronts are 600-800 and rear are 900-1200 lbs/"! What rates are you working with on the SER? What's the motion ratio and/or wheel rates? I've never took a closer look. SER is a awesome fun track car. I'm not sure if'd to well against good ITS cars though...
Roger Foo wanted to turn my del Sol into ITS car. He thinks we (well, he... ) can set some lap records with the car...
12-07-2002, 01:13 AM
#39
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>You said that you answered my questions, but that just isn't true. I asked -
"Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?"
Earlier I asked -
"How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment?"
You go out of your way to answer questions I didn't ask but you are avoiding the hard ones I did ask. I can see that will continue so I am wasting my time here. I have a plane to catch for Fla early tomorrow. The rest of you have fun with Frank's reality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a hard one to answer. I'll try my best in a few ways, see if they make sense.
On a conscious level I do not drive other's car any harder than I drive my own. I do not think I subsonsciously drive other's car harder either. For one thing, my cars are much easier to drive at the limit than RWD cars. I've been in some very high speed spins/off's while riding as a passenger (I'm not instructing most of them, just riding & watching and observing). Fortunately 95% of the car does not get hurt. When I induce oversteer by choice, there is a calulated risk I'm talking, I pick a section of the track where if things go beyond my control, I have a safe way out. I keep track of cars behind me, so I don't endanger anyone.
ADDITIONS: The MR2 Spyder and NSX 4 wheel off's. I was driving them at 8.5-9/10th pace. The 4 wheel off were the result of mistake started with braking. The Cup car was a rookie slick mistaken. Since that I will always remember to warm up R compound/Slicks fully. So, I would say that I did not intend to drive them harder than my own car.
My friend just made a great point to me, when people hand their keys to me, they are indeed taking a chance. They trust me with their car, or else I wouldn't get to drive it in the 1st place. So in a way, they accept the risk.
My question to you is simple and direct. And I've asked you now for the 4th time, who are you? You obviously signed on just to say something to me in public, and in an effort, trying to "bring the truth" out of me.
I have nothing to hide, I've answered (at least I tried) most questions. Sometimes I missed the Q. Bring it up to my attention. I don't necessarily answer everything because some Q's are none of anybody's business. But since everyone want to be so critical of me sharing my thoughts/ideas/theories/principles, I am sometimes obligated to continue the talk. NOTE TO SELF: ya dumb butt Frank, should've NEVER said anything about 10/10th.
Get to know the REAL me at the track. Talk with me, ride with me, and see for yourself. Me sleep now, good night everyone. Gonna be busy @ track for few days.
<strong>You said that you answered my questions, but that just isn't true. I asked -
"Why in the world do you drive other people's cars harder than you drive your own? Why do you risk damage to other people's cars beyond the risks you will take with your own car?"
Earlier I asked -
"How is it possible for one person to so consistently miss the point of every single comment?"
You go out of your way to answer questions I didn't ask but you are avoiding the hard ones I did ask. I can see that will continue so I am wasting my time here. I have a plane to catch for Fla early tomorrow. The rest of you have fun with Frank's reality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a hard one to answer. I'll try my best in a few ways, see if they make sense.
On a conscious level I do not drive other's car any harder than I drive my own. I do not think I subsonsciously drive other's car harder either. For one thing, my cars are much easier to drive at the limit than RWD cars. I've been in some very high speed spins/off's while riding as a passenger (I'm not instructing most of them, just riding & watching and observing). Fortunately 95% of the car does not get hurt. When I induce oversteer by choice, there is a calulated risk I'm talking, I pick a section of the track where if things go beyond my control, I have a safe way out. I keep track of cars behind me, so I don't endanger anyone.
ADDITIONS: The MR2 Spyder and NSX 4 wheel off's. I was driving them at 8.5-9/10th pace. The 4 wheel off were the result of mistake started with braking. The Cup car was a rookie slick mistaken. Since that I will always remember to warm up R compound/Slicks fully. So, I would say that I did not intend to drive them harder than my own car.
My friend just made a great point to me, when people hand their keys to me, they are indeed taking a chance. They trust me with their car, or else I wouldn't get to drive it in the 1st place. So in a way, they accept the risk.
My question to you is simple and direct. And I've asked you now for the 4th time, who are you? You obviously signed on just to say something to me in public, and in an effort, trying to "bring the truth" out of me.
I have nothing to hide, I've answered (at least I tried) most questions. Sometimes I missed the Q. Bring it up to my attention. I don't necessarily answer everything because some Q's are none of anybody's business. But since everyone want to be so critical of me sharing my thoughts/ideas/theories/principles, I am sometimes obligated to continue the talk. NOTE TO SELF: ya dumb butt Frank, should've NEVER said anything about 10/10th.
Get to know the REAL me at the track. Talk with me, ride with me, and see for yourself. Me sleep now, good night everyone. Gonna be busy @ track for few days.
12-07-2002, 01:40 AM
#40
Drifting
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[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>wasn't warned slicks takes more than 1 lap to warm up. i decided to pick up a little speed entering T3 (off camber right) on 2nd lap. the tail came around faster than anything I've experienced. I countered (Cup car has limited steering angle) only initial, and didn't get on the gas, when I got on the gas a split second later, the rear end was way out already. i contemplated for a split second about riding the drift out but i decided a controlled spin was a better way to go. I simply back off the throttle and move the steering wheel straight. I did a controlled 180 spin, kept the car on track, did not stall, and drove on. did couple of really good warm up laps, and got some decent laps in, and finished the session... this was on a open test day. not a DE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My god man, you just dont get it. You are telling us about how great an instructor you are and how much experience you have in other peoples cars, nevermind the fact that you are trying out to be a Skip Instructor with no race experience, and then you admit that you didn't know slicks take longer than one lap to warm up
Are you from Mars?
Then in the same paragraph (its usually not htis easy) you say something about a 996 cup car has a limited steering angle? WTF does that mean. You ran out of talent?
Then, how about this gem:
[quote]<strong>That's not what the head of the pitlane said. I asked him why the black flag, he just said you're making lot of tire noise and we're afriad you'll lose it. If anyone has driven on Kumho Ecasta 712's I'm sure they can attest to their sound quality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Frank, please help me off the floor, I cant stop laughing. Are you really trying to tell us that in all your experience (60+ days in other peoples cars this year alone) you were told that you were asked to end a session because your tires were too loud? Please. I don't care if you were told that, I think they just didn't want to hurt your feelings.
Thanks for making my night.
E. J.
PS
[quote]<strong>Gonna be busy @ track for few days.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dont wreck any student's cars.
<strong>wasn't warned slicks takes more than 1 lap to warm up. i decided to pick up a little speed entering T3 (off camber right) on 2nd lap. the tail came around faster than anything I've experienced. I countered (Cup car has limited steering angle) only initial, and didn't get on the gas, when I got on the gas a split second later, the rear end was way out already. i contemplated for a split second about riding the drift out but i decided a controlled spin was a better way to go. I simply back off the throttle and move the steering wheel straight. I did a controlled 180 spin, kept the car on track, did not stall, and drove on. did couple of really good warm up laps, and got some decent laps in, and finished the session... this was on a open test day. not a DE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My god man, you just dont get it. You are telling us about how great an instructor you are and how much experience you have in other peoples cars, nevermind the fact that you are trying out to be a Skip Instructor with no race experience, and then you admit that you didn't know slicks take longer than one lap to warm up
Are you from Mars?Then in the same paragraph (its usually not htis easy) you say something about a 996 cup car has a limited steering angle? WTF does that mean. You ran out of talent?
Then, how about this gem:
[quote]<strong>That's not what the head of the pitlane said. I asked him why the black flag, he just said you're making lot of tire noise and we're afriad you'll lose it. If anyone has driven on Kumho Ecasta 712's I'm sure they can attest to their sound quality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Frank, please help me off the floor, I cant stop laughing. Are you really trying to tell us that in all your experience (60+ days in other peoples cars this year alone) you were told that you were asked to end a session because your tires were too loud? Please. I don't care if you were told that, I think they just didn't want to hurt your feelings.
Thanks for making my night.
E. J.
PS
[quote]<strong>Gonna be busy @ track for few days.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dont wreck any student's cars.
12-07-2002, 01:49 AM
#41
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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NOTE: I added quotes and some additions to clarify the post.
[quote]<strong>E.J. wrote:
Then in the same paragraph (its usually not htis easy) you say something about a 996 cup car has a limited steering angle? WTF does that mean. You ran out of talent?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Last one tonight. Compare to street 996's (all) 996 GT3 Cup has limited range of steering angle. My guess is because the wheels are tucked under the fender and they limited it so it would rub. So say in street car you can turn the wheel 45 deg's, you can only do maybe 30 deg in the Cup. GT2 has same front tire width as the Cup but certainly does not have this limiter. I can't think of another reason, if anyone knows why please enlighten me.
[quote]<strong>Frank, please help me off the floor, I cant stop laughing. Are you really trying to tell us that in all your experience (60+ days in other peoples cars this year alone) you were told that you were asked to end a session because your tires were too loud? Please. I don't care if you were told that, I think they just didn't want to hurt your feelings.
Thanks for making my night.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have you driven, or sat in a car with the Kumho 712? The owner of the car was riding me when I got black flagged. We were both amused with the reason for black flag. In no way was the car was out of shape in any form. They were just using serious precaution. Seriously you fools, if the owners are not complaning, WTF is it to you guys? Sheesh.
How I drove other people's cars is strickly between me and the owner and none of your guy's damn business. And keep that seperate that from my ability (or the lack of) to instruct.
Real wreckless drivers get asked to leave the track. Most people clam down after they get the talk. I was asked about my driving because they were concerned, I just told them it's a noisy tire, I'm doing just fine thank you and they had nothing to worry about. I drove the rest of the day in the same manner and they never brought it up to me again.
For anyone to comment on someone else's driving without riding with them, it's really not fair. At the last Audi Club event @ Infineon, I worked with a bunch of C (their Advanced) students. Dean was worried some of them were on the edgy/dangerous side. I rode with few of them to check them out and they were all doing fine, just needed some quick pointers. They were a little on the aggressive side but certainly not dangerous. No one on their right mind would go to the track trying to endanger themselve or others at an unforgiving track like Infineon. I okayed them to go solo, and they did not disappoint.
[quote]<strong>Dont wreck any student's cars.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure you're just waiting for that to happen. How nice of you to wish warm to other people's cars.
[quote]<strong>E.J. wrote:
Then in the same paragraph (its usually not htis easy) you say something about a 996 cup car has a limited steering angle? WTF does that mean. You ran out of talent?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Last one tonight. Compare to street 996's (all) 996 GT3 Cup has limited range of steering angle. My guess is because the wheels are tucked under the fender and they limited it so it would rub. So say in street car you can turn the wheel 45 deg's, you can only do maybe 30 deg in the Cup. GT2 has same front tire width as the Cup but certainly does not have this limiter. I can't think of another reason, if anyone knows why please enlighten me.
[quote]<strong>Frank, please help me off the floor, I cant stop laughing. Are you really trying to tell us that in all your experience (60+ days in other peoples cars this year alone) you were told that you were asked to end a session because your tires were too loud? Please. I don't care if you were told that, I think they just didn't want to hurt your feelings.
Thanks for making my night.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have you driven, or sat in a car with the Kumho 712? The owner of the car was riding me when I got black flagged. We were both amused with the reason for black flag. In no way was the car was out of shape in any form. They were just using serious precaution. Seriously you fools, if the owners are not complaning, WTF is it to you guys? Sheesh.
How I drove other people's cars is strickly between me and the owner and none of your guy's damn business. And keep that seperate that from my ability (or the lack of) to instruct.
Real wreckless drivers get asked to leave the track. Most people clam down after they get the talk. I was asked about my driving because they were concerned, I just told them it's a noisy tire, I'm doing just fine thank you and they had nothing to worry about. I drove the rest of the day in the same manner and they never brought it up to me again.
For anyone to comment on someone else's driving without riding with them, it's really not fair. At the last Audi Club event @ Infineon, I worked with a bunch of C (their Advanced) students. Dean was worried some of them were on the edgy/dangerous side. I rode with few of them to check them out and they were all doing fine, just needed some quick pointers. They were a little on the aggressive side but certainly not dangerous. No one on their right mind would go to the track trying to endanger themselve or others at an unforgiving track like Infineon. I okayed them to go solo, and they did not disappoint.
[quote]<strong>Dont wreck any student's cars.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure you're just waiting for that to happen. How nice of you to wish warm to other people's cars.
12-07-2002, 02:00 AM
#42
6th Gear
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[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>
Me sleep now, good night everyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is the smartest thing you have ever said here. You just don't follow good advice, even your own.
<strong>
Me sleep now, good night everyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is the smartest thing you have ever said here. You just don't follow good advice, even your own.
12-07-2002, 02:09 AM
#43
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>I go way back on the early SE-R days...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm the original owner of my 91. At the time it was just an interesting tow car for my racing kart. About 5 years later I realized what a true gem it is.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>WOW. That's a lot of weight for the 944. Is the SER able to get close to current ITS record times?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, they really stick it to the 944.
As for the SE-R, I think it's a match for any ITS car except for the E36 Bimmer, but the Bimmer is just an incredible overdog for the class. I don't know of any fully developed SE-R/NX2000 in ITS, but some are getting close. With a fully developed car they should be up front with a good driver.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Should be awesome. I've had a few laps in a non turbo 944, it's an impressive handling car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I think so. While a lot of folks have told me the 944 will be a really expensive car to build, for me the only really expensive item will be the engine when I do a proper IT build. The rest of it I've either acquired through careful shopping or designing and/or building things myself.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Lots of interesting ITS reading from ARRC results recently ehh? ITS seems like one of the more expensive IT class.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, the Bimmerworld guys installed the ballast wrong and were tossed. They are class guys though. They blew off a little steam on the IT forum, but admitted it was their own fault. There was a sentance or two missing from the 2002 ITCS regarind this issue and it was updated in Fastrack and they missed the Fastrack bulletin and didn't look at previous years. Part of the reason the E36 is an overdog though is the Bimmerworld guys went through the cars from front to back, top to bottom and did everything possible to the car within the rules (except the ballast ).
It is an expensive class, but mostly that's because there are a lot of people willing to spend the big bucks and certainly enough people out there to buy $40-60 turn-key SpeedSource RX-7s and Bimmerworld E36s. I'm hoping my company will put the SE-R/NX into the winner's circle for less. And of course the 944.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>FWD Honda's have a strong rear spring bias... fronts are 600-800 and rear are 900-1200 lbs/"! What rates are you working with on the SER? What's the motion ratio and/or wheel rates? I've never took a closer look. SER is a awesome fun track car. I'm not sure if'd to well against good ITS cars though...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It'll run with the best of them in ITS (again, except perhaps the E36, but for the most part, nobody has anything for them).
We're running 450/400 on the SE-R, but once we get our Koni double adjustables for the car and ditch the bolt-in cage for a proper welded cage, we'll probably get up around 600/700 or so.
On the 944 I expect to run a fair bit higher rates than the vast majority of 944s out there as well, but I have a little more research to do.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Roger Foo wanted to turn my del Sol into ITS car. He thinks we (well, he... ) can set some lap records with the car...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Should make a pretty good car from what I've seen, but again, they need to be properly developed and I don't know of anyone doing that yet.
<strong>I go way back on the early SE-R days...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm the original owner of my 91. At the time it was just an interesting tow car for my racing kart. About 5 years later I realized what a true gem it is.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>WOW. That's a lot of weight for the 944. Is the SER able to get close to current ITS record times?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, they really stick it to the 944.
As for the SE-R, I think it's a match for any ITS car except for the E36 Bimmer, but the Bimmer is just an incredible overdog for the class. I don't know of any fully developed SE-R/NX2000 in ITS, but some are getting close. With a fully developed car they should be up front with a good driver.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Should be awesome. I've had a few laps in a non turbo 944, it's an impressive handling car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I think so. While a lot of folks have told me the 944 will be a really expensive car to build, for me the only really expensive item will be the engine when I do a proper IT build. The rest of it I've either acquired through careful shopping or designing and/or building things myself.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Lots of interesting ITS reading from ARRC results recently ehh? ITS seems like one of the more expensive IT class.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, the Bimmerworld guys installed the ballast wrong and were tossed. They are class guys though. They blew off a little steam on the IT forum, but admitted it was their own fault. There was a sentance or two missing from the 2002 ITCS regarind this issue and it was updated in Fastrack and they missed the Fastrack bulletin and didn't look at previous years. Part of the reason the E36 is an overdog though is the Bimmerworld guys went through the cars from front to back, top to bottom and did everything possible to the car within the rules (except the ballast
).It is an expensive class, but mostly that's because there are a lot of people willing to spend the big bucks and certainly enough people out there to buy $40-60 turn-key SpeedSource RX-7s and Bimmerworld E36s. I'm hoping my company will put the SE-R/NX into the winner's circle for less. And of course the 944.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>FWD Honda's have a strong rear spring bias... fronts are 600-800 and rear are 900-1200 lbs/"! What rates are you working with on the SER? What's the motion ratio and/or wheel rates? I've never took a closer look. SER is a awesome fun track car. I'm not sure if'd to well against good ITS cars though...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It'll run with the best of them in ITS (again, except perhaps the E36, but for the most part, nobody has anything for them).
We're running 450/400 on the SE-R, but once we get our Koni double adjustables for the car and ditch the bolt-in cage for a proper welded cage, we'll probably get up around 600/700 or so.
On the 944 I expect to run a fair bit higher rates than the vast majority of 944s out there as well, but I have a little more research to do.
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>Roger Foo wanted to turn my del Sol into ITS car. He thinks we (well, he... ) can set some lap records with the car...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Should make a pretty good car from what I've seen, but again, they need to be properly developed and I don't know of anyone doing that yet.
12-07-2002, 02:54 AM
#44
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
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[quote]Originally posted by SeriousRacer:
<strong>
This is the smartest thing you have ever said here. You just don't follow good advice, even your own.</strong><hr></blockquote>
*made food, eating dinner, too hungry to sleep*
are you just gonna keep on making smart comments and not answer any questions?
the 10 sec differential, who's car were you refering to, and who was driving it? and for the 5th time, who are you? don't worry I'm not the kind of person that would hold real grudge and think to do some thing physical or silly. but i would like to know who is talking the trash.
to answer one of Geo's earlier Q I forgot to answer:
[quote]<strong>
I don't know what you're waiting for, but in many corners I'm hard on the throttle through the apex, but that depends upon the corner.
Please explain what you are waiting for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What I meant was, if the momentum car is setup well, after you apply full power, you simply track out and carry the speed through. Not really all that busy once you've taken care of the turn in. Vs. a powerful enough car, you can to have fun with a true powerslide from apex to exit...
The worst kind of wait IMO, is a car that pushes badly... then you can't do much but wait, and wait, and wait until the front end finds enough traction.
<strong>
This is the smartest thing you have ever said here. You just don't follow good advice, even your own.</strong><hr></blockquote>
*made food, eating dinner, too hungry to sleep*
are you just gonna keep on making smart comments and not answer any questions?
the 10 sec differential, who's car were you refering to, and who was driving it? and for the 5th time, who are you? don't worry I'm not the kind of person that would hold real grudge and think to do some thing physical or silly. but i would like to know who is talking the trash.
to answer one of Geo's earlier Q I forgot to answer:
[quote]<strong>
I don't know what you're waiting for, but in many corners I'm hard on the throttle through the apex, but that depends upon the corner.
Please explain what you are waiting for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What I meant was, if the momentum car is setup well, after you apply full power, you simply track out and carry the speed through. Not really all that busy once you've taken care of the turn in. Vs. a powerful enough car, you can to have fun with a true powerslide from apex to exit...
The worst kind of wait IMO, is a car that pushes badly... then you can't do much but wait, and wait, and wait until the front end finds enough traction.
12-07-2002, 04:58 AM
#45
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>What I meant was, if the momentum car is setup well, after you apply full power, you simply track out and carry the speed through. Not really all that busy once you've taken care of the turn in. Vs. a powerful enough car, you can to have fun with a true powerslide from apex to exit...
The worst kind of wait IMO, is a car that pushes badly... then you can't do much but wait, and wait, and wait until the front end finds enough traction.</strong><hr></blockquote>
See, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying. Properly set up, you don't have that. Of course, an LSD helps, which the SE-R has. Adding a Quaife to the car is good for about a second a lap.
<strong>What I meant was, if the momentum car is setup well, after you apply full power, you simply track out and carry the speed through. Not really all that busy once you've taken care of the turn in. Vs. a powerful enough car, you can to have fun with a true powerslide from apex to exit...
The worst kind of wait IMO, is a car that pushes badly... then you can't do much but wait, and wait, and wait until the front end finds enough traction.</strong><hr></blockquote>
See, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying. Properly set up, you don't have that. Of course, an LSD helps, which the SE-R has. Adding a Quaife to the car is good for about a second a lap.