Dr.Porsche

Bill N, That is a good one.

Glen, very funny!

Tony356993

Keep 'em coming guys & gals - I'm learning too.

ronbo56

From an eager student who has recently been signed off:

1. Powerful cars are great - after you learn to drive. I started this DE season - my first - in my Ferrari and quickly figured out that I would never learn anything or have fun until I had a momentum car. Now my 944 NA is being rebuilt for Cup racing and my F-car stays off the track (for now).

2. That said, the best session I had in my Ferrari was when my instructor had me lap the Glen with no brakes. Obviously, no drag racing down the straights and not much shifting. Less obviously, I was passing cars that had owned me earlier in the day. Bloody brilliant.

3. When I finally soloed, my instructor signed me off provisionally: he had me do a session alone, then another session with him, before signing me off officially. Very wise, and according to him based on having students lose their minds or their memories when first signed off. He didn't mention the change in weight but I didn't feel any change in the car. Perhaps the street tires/stock suspension made it less of an issue or maybe I was just new to the car.

4. I've made my peace with getting fast slowly. I had an instructor tell me once that I drove like a girl, but all of his fastest students were girls. There is probably a better way to make the same point, but still ...

5. Thanks for caring enough about us students to want to get instructing right.

RedlineMan

Hey Tom;

I'll limit it to two points;

1) K.I.S.S. I use about 7 terms. You know them because you've read them in the article. Keeping things simple is a great gift to the student. I make sure I tell them what I am doing and why so that my limited vocabulary does not give them the impression that I am dissinterested. How do you know what this person needs to learn if you don't sit and watch them drive for a bit? Tell them what to do, when to do it, and by their reactions you will then know what to expound upon. Otherwise, you are just shooting in the dark, and probably overloading them with bulldurem!

2) Stress consistency and smoothness. Explain to them that their goal early on is to figure out what to do, do it right, and then repeat it over and over until it is second nature. If they want to go fast, tell them they must first drive consistently and smoothly using the tools they have now, and limit them to a Speed for Success as you must. Before long and if they don't realize it themsleves, you can clue them in to the fact that speed has happened, and then tell them why. It is their patience and attention to proper form that has created speed. By this they will see the importance of proper technique, and will strive for it instead of trying to drive fast consciously. That never works.

cavlino

Hey John, Merry Christmas Tim, I would also like to thank you for asking the Mentors questions. The responses have been very enlightening and amusing. Great stuff!

tkerrmd

Well once again this forum has not disappointed!!! The wealth of knowledge and more importantly the willingness to share has been overwhelming, all I can say is that this thread response has been one of my best Christmas presents. Also one in which I will be able to share with students for years to come!!....some of my favorite stuff (this helps me remember.... you know neural pathways and all)

Larry...good point about the sign off student especially since I have never done that yet!!

Chris, thanks again for all your help, at Sebring the student learning the 17 turns does take a while, and I will keep that in mind as a marker before the speed increases.

Dan...thanks and hopefully I will be an asset to the clubs not a "pain in the ***" but I cant I promise!!
I am glad to have the opportunity to be involved in the Suncoast and Gold coast PCA regions and really would like to help and be more involved, instructing is just hopefully one way.
Good point about seeing the same place every two minutes I'll remember that as I keep chanting "drive the line, drive the line"
I look forward to your clubs event, I have heard lots of good things, cant wait!! See ya there!!

Tony, I will try to always keep it positive and keep the feel good stuff coming, and as you say, the student did pay for this and should ENJOY themselves and I really think that is the most important part. Great idea about the email to the student, if I can do that I will also.
I will keep an eye on their eyes, good point.
How do I get a copy of your "speed secrets" I need it!!
Do alot of instructors use the "no shifting" technique for beginning students?

Dr Porsche... thanks for the great quote, I committed them to memory!! Good point about the weight difference with one less person in the car, thanks.

Bull... Lunch got it!! I always bought my instructors lunch!!

Bob... as always good advise and you are a great mentor of mine!! I am proud to have you in the region. Many great points but the "speed on my terms not theirs" is a great safety point and I will use it! See ya soon!

Glen I think we all like your quote!!!!

Bill N. ... "if you want to go fast, dont hurry" goes in my book also, thanks

Ronbo...good stuff. The provisional check off and re-visit is a very good idea, thanks

John H. glad I am answering you last. First, as always thank you for taking the time and trouble to share your knowledge with all of us (or at least me). I agree with the K.I.S.S. which actually works in all walks of life, but I would like to end with a question. Many including you have mentioned short phrases and words to use. And I know they are throughout the postings but I was wondering if you would mind repeating your seven terms here for all of us. Followed by the rest of the mentors in this thread sharing their favorite track words or phrases or even hand signals would be very helpful and interesting to at least me..................

thanks again all for helping me and hopefully others continue to improve as instructors...........you guys are truely awesome!!!!!

kurt M

Don't instruct in the corners other than one or two word corrections or comments. Don't discuss what is behind you, wait til the next lap and instruct as you approach the corner in question. Long winded instruction is best done in the pits or little bits on the straights.

I don't point out the flag stations I have my students point out the manned flag stations on every out lap. Gets them in the habit of looking for flaggers themselves.
I ask my students to call out any flag they see the second they see it. I tell my students that I will call them into the pits every time they miss a flag or I call it before they do. I do give a small reaction time bumper to them if I see it first. I look to see what they are looking at then let them know they just blew by a flag.

When I sign off a student I let them know I am going to go watch them from corner # XX. This corner is always the one they are having the most trouble with. I let them know I will be watching and expect a good clean line and sometimes even go to the corner and watch. .

Sign off is a 2 person contract. You are not dumping a student for free time or to beat feet on Sunday. You are letting they drive on their own and learn the concept of self determination and concentration. Some students need this or they will get dependant on you protecting them rather than they thinking about what they are doing. You and the student must be comfortable in their driving solo. I always approach the sign off as "I feel that you are ready to do some solo driving if you like, your call".

Larry Herman

Since we're on the subject, I approach signoff the same way that Kurt does, i.e. when the best thing that the student can do next is to make laps and work on some self critique (though I never have the time to go watch them from a corner ). It is prefaced by having the student vocalize their mistakes as they make them in the car, with me being very quiet and observing. If they can recognize their errors and correct them, use their mirrors, and are fairly consistent then they are ready for some solo sessions. The goal for those sessions being improved consistency and smoothness.

I still talk to them after those sessions, and usually get back into the car at least once after that to see how they are improving. They are my student for the entire weekend, not just until they are signed off.

VERBOTN

TKERRMD thank you for the thread. By the shear number and quality of responses you can see how effective and powerful "questioning" is. I will now be absolutely shameless and pinch all the great feedbak, proper credti being given, and use a selection at the Feb 2007 Instructor school I/my region is conducting.

Happy New Year to all.

Dr.Porsche

+1 For what Kurt said. I do it about the same.

Tony356993

I like it Kurt.

mark kibort

"KISS" is the best policy. dont get too caught up on the "line" stuff, heck, even 95 year old ladies take the apex on turns on public highways.

1. " brake straight" This stops most student problems and spin causes
2. have them learn turn-in speed, if they exceed it, have them not insist on the "line" just keep on braking until you get to that speed, and then turn. if it means missing the apex and going deep, FINE!!! All this "drive the line stuff, is the worst things you can teach a beginner. control and limits are the most important things (my opinion)
3. I like this simple one too, " use all the track, you paid for it" this is actually better than "drive the line" as it brings the focus on driving and exiting out to the width of the track. another cause of a potential problem is driving "narrrow" and this can help develope good exit habits.
4. brake later, harder and shorter (see #2). this can be learned early, but it sure gets rid of all the post DE chat about how thieir brakes are failing, cooking , feeling soft, etc.

Those 4 things can save folks a lot of time on the ramp up, and make it a heck of a lot more enjoyable for the instructor. Spins shouldnt be a "right of passage".

Mk

RedlineMan

Hey Tom;

I want to say that your motivation and unselfish, non-ego driven attitude impresses me greatly. You are indeed a great asset to the Florida scene. The whole club in general. You may have written the manual on how to be a prospect!

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...2Language.html


LIFT off the gas,
BRAKE,
OFF BRAKE,
TURN,
Ease progressively into the THROTTLE,
Clip a tight APEX,
UNWIND the wheel,
and TRACK OUT

You, of course, can make your own list, and/or augment this one as needed.

We are like a custodian, in a new building with lots of doors, some locked, some not. In other words, we do not know what they do or don't know yet.

We have a ring of keys that we know well. We know that some of these keys will unlock the right doors, but which ones? I have found that by only doing what is necessary to make sure the student stays on track, and by sitting and watching, the student will show me which keys are needed. It takes far less time when you don't have to guess and simply try every key in every door, hoping to hit on the right one.

A little time spent watching will save time for you in the end, and save confusion for your student.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got some reinforcement for this method with my last student. After 2 days of continually coaching this fellow with this list of terms - out of necessity - I had reached the point where I basically had written him off. He did not seem to grasp the reasoning behind what I was telling him, and he could not maintain any real consistency. I simply did not think that after 2 days of needing to tell him turn after turn, lap after lap, what to do and when, that he had any aptitude for this driving thing at all.

3rd day, first session, more of the same. I'm sure my resignation was probably palpable, which is a strike against me. Then, it happened. The 2nd run of day 3, he had his epiphany. For what ever reason, he decided to go a little faster. I'm not sure why, but suddenly everything I had been telling him started to click. Instead of good technique creating speed, the extra speed made the techniques work. When he needed to do something because of this epeed, he did so instinctively and with commitment. I was stunned, and I told him so in a most positive fashion. "Who are you... and what have you done with Bob?"

Although he had not been able to use it, had no idea of why it was useful, it had been sinking in. The subconscious pattern had been cementing itself. I have no idea whether it was a conscious decision or not, to go faster, but the smashing of that plateau was a real eye openner for us both. As resigned as I has been, so too was I that effusive with praise, and more so. The pumping of my fist in his periferal vision, a pat on the shoulder, "Yesssss, Excellent, Perfect, Woooohoo!"

The instructor had a break through. I learned a lot from him. Don't give up.

RedlineMan

Great Point, Mark;

Many times this missing the apex thing is the result of the "Good Technique Creating Speed" phenomenon. They often times will also have concurrently reached the point of self critiquing their driving. When the inevitable wide lines happen, I make sure to shift their attention to what the car did, not where it was. If the arc was well set, and the car composed and solid, I make sure to reinforce that. I impress upon them why this happened (Good Technique=Speed Happens), and make them feel that it is now a simple thing to tweak their turn in point a bit. Not a big deal. We'll fix it next lap!

mdrums

As a student with only 1 DE under my belt I am learning alot from all of you. I have taken many many lesson on percussion and drums and have learned to be a good student in my years of learning. It's really a 2 way street with student and instructor.

Tom, you are and will be a awesome instructor and from knowing you and reading your post's here on rennelist I am absolutly going to DEMAND that you are my instructor at the next DE whenever that will be.
see ya, Mike