Bob Rouleau

BostonDMD - Progress varies from one region to another. Some set higher standards than others. In Rennsport, a talented driver usually takes 3 years to go from Novice (green) to Advanced (Black). There have been a few exceptions, one of my students (I use the word lightly) went from Novice to Instructor in 18 months. He is also the 3 time Ferrari Challenge Champion and faster than some of the Farrari Factory drivers.

I caution you that your progress will not be based solely on speed. Instructors are more concerned with driving skill than the size of a driver's gonads. Are you fast because you are fluid, have super smooth inputs and make seamless transitions from brake to throttle? Are you fast because you are willing to take more risks than others in your group? Are you driving from cone to cone or do you look ahead into the corner using only peripheral vision to manage braking points? How do you manage traffic, does your car speed up whenever you see a car in front or worse, in your mirrors? Is PSM driving your car or is it you?

Those are some of the things I would be looking for if I was in your car. If you have those skills and display proper etiquette on track, your progress through the run groups will be quick. Your posts suggest an "alpha male" type personality. Instructors and event organizers will be watching for aggressive driving. At DE, aggressive drivers are a known menace and are closely scrutinized and sanctions applied if needed. In our region, I look at a driver's track record - spins, black flags etc. as a pre-requisite to promotion to Black. We have a couple of good rivers who are stuck in a lower run group because they can't overcome their aggression (and the lapses in judgement that follow).

DE is not the Boy Scouts. Run group promotion is not like collecting merit badges. You are there to have fun and to learn how to drive a car (as opposed to operating one - there is a big difference). Be smooth and learn to "see" and you will be fast. Be polite on track and you will progress. Right now you are faster than others in your group. The Barbe school helped and perhaps you are naturally talented. As you move into more experienced run groups you will be on a more level field and you will get passed. Those slow GT3's you disdain will blow your doors off. Will that bother you? If Tremper shows up in his absurdly fast 914 you'll get passed no matter how good you are. If you are there for fun and learning this won't bother you, Since DE is NOT RACING it doesn't matter. Promotions are awarded without respect to lap times. It's how you drive that counts, not being the fastest guy on the circuit.

Others have given you good advice. Get instructors to ride with you and pay strict attention to their suggestions. At your level, you don't need to try and seek out "Super Instructor". Any PCA instructor will be able to help you progress. I think you will be surprised at how competent we are. With all due respect to Skippy and Jim Russell, PCA instructors got to be in Red because they have all the qualities I enumerated above plus a lot of experience. They also have a lot of practice sitting in he passenger seat of a car - something single seaters cannot provide. I did a race school a few years ago to re-instate my Racing License. It was a good school. In my opinion it was not better than PC Driver's Ed in any respect. Nothing beats having an experienced teacher sitting IN YOUR CAR.

So, having said all of that, go forth and enjoy yourself. It is addictive. I can see you getting in line for a GT3 in a few years

Best,

eugene

Very well said by John Hajny.

eugene.

kurt M

As you drive more with a group they will learn your needs and you will also get to know the instructors. Talk to the C.I. and relay your desires and goals. He/she will direct you in the right direction and find you compatible instructors as you advance. All drivers are different and good DE groups adjust the instructor/student pairings to match as best as they can.

Being fast in your group does not mean you are the best driver. The hardware comes into play and more so in the less experienced groups. Your instructor can feel and see how you are doing and the DE team will move you along as you progress. Look at what you are doing in the car and work on the basics and your control inputs before you look a the cars around you other than not hitting them. If your helmet starts getting tight you are more likely to blend in with the trackside hard stuff.

LISTEN to your C.I. and instructors! A student that is rocking in a powerful car but ham fisting the basics in a rush to be “fast” is more likely to break his/her toys. A good skills based foundation of habits and knowledge will in the long run save you time, $ and frustration. (and make you fast in whatever you are driving

Veloce Raptor

One more thing, to add on to what Kurt said back on Page 1:

Once you get soloed, and start moving up into the more advanced groups, specifically ask for advanced instructors to ride with you at least once or twice per DE weekend. These folks are trained to look for the little things--the nuances--that can make such huge differences when your driving moves up-level. They are also trained to spot the smaller & smaller mistakes & bad habits that can hamper your progress.

Gary R.

All good advice. I would say to attend as many events with as many different regions as you can and simply concentrate on improving in all aspects of driving... let your instructors worry about what group you belong in. I have found that humility is your best friend. I started this "addiction" on 6/25/05 and am being evaluated for Black next week... similar to Todd ONLY because instructors have told me I should. My last event I asked for an instructor and noticed I was the only one in White to have one... tells you something?

soldmystang

green group can be a slippery slope. i learned humility the hard way, and it has helped with my learning curve immeasurably. after being promoted to yellow with two different clubs i ran with a group that did not know me. they placed me in green, much to my chagrin.

after pissing and moaning all night friday and half the day saturday my frustration came to a head as i nearly T-boned a kid in a turn. after my *** chewing from my instructor i got my head back in the game. learn the line, learn the car, manage traffic & look for the worker stations. all the fundamentals of green group and beyond.

green group can be very frustrating after the first event or two IMO as the trains and the totally unpredictable actions of others are more evident to someone with multiple events. however, this too can be a learning tool.

mitch236

As an instructor, I don't mind the student that has promotion on his/her mind. I can still remember wanting to be solo when I was still in green. At the time, I didn't realize how valuable having an instructor with me was. Since I am very competitive, I advanced very quickly. Soon, I was spinning at almost every event. It was then that my first instructor, who became my great friend, sat me down and explained that I didn't really have the skills to be pushing that hard. I wanted to be the fastest. On some laps, I was fairly fast but when things went awry, I didn't have the skills to realize it soon enough and have the approprriate response to save it. Also at that level, you don't make little mistakes, you make clumbsy, big ones. Luckily I didn't hurt myself or anyone else. I decided to take a step back and learn properly.

My point is, listen to what John said. He explained it perfectly.

Larry Herman

Trains are my pet peeve. If there are 2 helmets in the car, then it is the instructor's fault as much, or even more so than the student's.

M758

Why do you want to move up?

Back when I started doing DE's (before Local PCA did DE's) I started in what was called the school group. We all went through class and ran there with instructors. Speeds were slow, but fine. Shortly I moved in to the indermediate (red) group. The only group above this was advanced (green). (BTW... this is why I HATE colors. Colors mean different things to different people Better to use numbers or names so we know what the heck these colors mean. )

Anyway it took me 1 day before I was out of the school and solo, but a couple years before I felt confident to run in green( advanced). In fact I had friend who ran advanced on session, but went back since the cars were faster in advanced and he was more comfortable in the noice group. It allowed him to relax more.

Point is there is no planned pace for progression. Each driver will take as much time as they need to move up. Drivers should not move up just to move up, but the goal should be to run a group they are comfortable in both speed and skill level.

BostonDMD

Bob, thanks for your input and insights.

I am not Schumacher, and I am not definetly a risk taker, especially after crushing two formula cars during my Skippy days.

May be I wasn't fast, it could be that everyone else in that particular group was even more green or slower than me

But seriously, my instructor wrote on my PCA log:
" Line greatly improved, several consistent laps, great heel and toe. Few more laps and will quickly move to yellow group"

During the last two runs he told me to turn the PSM off as it was intervening a bit too soon and thus preventing the minor drifts and rotations and since he felt I was pretty smooth.

Again, I am not god's gift to tracking, but I did have a great time in my new Cayman S and I intend to do as many events as possible next year....

Thanks for taking the time to respond...

38D

I do agree with what others have said on not worrying about progressing too much. However, I'll still answer your original question. If you were to look at the northeast PCA regions, I would guess the normal range is something like the following:

Green --> Yellow, 8-15 days
Yellow --> White, 10-25 days
White --> Black, 20-35 days
Black --> Red, 25-40 days

So assuming you go to 15 days per year, it would take between 5-8 years to get to Red. That also assumes you drive with the same region/group all the time, so that they get to know you and your driving abilities. I'd guess that 80% of people fall into the ranges above. Now some do not, and that is aboslutely 100% ok. Just because someone else can advanced at a certain speed does not mean you can. DE is not a tenure model (or at least should not be).

BostonDMD

Now Bob, isn't a slow GT3 an oxymoron?

I was thinking about a 997 tt for an all around vehicle, that way I could use all year around even in Boston's winter months.

What do you think about that?

BostonDMD

Because I want to be in a group where I am not the fastest driver.

The more time in green I spend the cockier I get

Being surpassed on the track teaches humility and respect, at least to me it does....

I guess I am a glutton for punishment...

Veloce Raptor

Wow.

I would not ever, ever tell a student to do this.

Too much legal liability unless it is 100% the student's decision...

Greg Fishman

I agree completely. Within one DE event and getting a ride in a couple cars that were raced in PCA, I knew exactly what I wanted to achieve. I wanted to be good enough to be an instructor and start racing. I did lots of DE's the next year or so and was racing within 20 months or so. Goals are not bad tools, you just need to know the right way to obtain them.