Are all Spins/Offs Created Equal?
10-23-2006, 02:20 PM
#1
Are all Spins/Offs Created Equal?
When is a spin/off part of the learning process and when is it evidence of a reckless driving, lack of talent, or bad attitude?
In my personal opinion, not all spins/offs are the same.
Some spins/offs can be the result of a very conscientious driver (1) trying to push his or her own boundaries in an effort to learn something new, (2) hitting something on the track that could not be reasonably foreseen (e.g., that nasty green stuff from those heretic water-pumper Porsches -- if you can call them Porsches), or (3) recognizing that they have made an error and choosing to drive off the track rather than create a bigger problem.
Of course, other spins/offs can be the byproduct of a bad attitude, refusal to listen to an instructor, or consistently overdriving the car with bad technique.
Is it possible to continue learning at DEs if you are not pushing yourself hard enough that a spin or an off is possible?
Nobody I know ever wants to spin or have an off because it can damage your car and/or lead to a wreck. That said, I learned more from my wreck than I have from hundreds of clean laps (not that I EVER want to repeat that experience thank you very much).
Why am I asking?
Some friends of mine have heard that NNJR region has a hard and fast rule that you are sent home if you have two spins during the weekend, and that two wheels off counts as a spin. Although I would never admit it to them face-to-face, the people I have in mind are good and consciencous drivers who seek to learn. They, like many drivers I know, do spin or drop wheels off from time to time and, depending upon how rigorously you apply the definition of spin/wheels dropped off, have done so twice during a weekend several times. These guys are considering dropping out of NNJR's VIR event because they don't want to waste their time and money only to be sent home early.
It is no secret that I am a fan of the events NNJR runs, so they have been quizzing me on this, which led me to ponder the purpose/wisdom of the rule. I have told them that I do not think they have anything to worry about, but it would be nice to hear what others think about that type of rule in general and NNJR in particular.
TD
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger here. I am just willing to raise an issue that typically gets discussed in the paddocks rather than on-line.
In my personal opinion, not all spins/offs are the same.
Some spins/offs can be the result of a very conscientious driver (1) trying to push his or her own boundaries in an effort to learn something new, (2) hitting something on the track that could not be reasonably foreseen (e.g., that nasty green stuff from those heretic water-pumper Porsches -- if you can call them Porsches), or (3) recognizing that they have made an error and choosing to drive off the track rather than create a bigger problem.
Of course, other spins/offs can be the byproduct of a bad attitude, refusal to listen to an instructor, or consistently overdriving the car with bad technique.
Is it possible to continue learning at DEs if you are not pushing yourself hard enough that a spin or an off is possible?
Nobody I know ever wants to spin or have an off because it can damage your car and/or lead to a wreck. That said, I learned more from my wreck than I have from hundreds of clean laps (not that I EVER want to repeat that experience thank you very much).
Why am I asking?
Some friends of mine have heard that NNJR region has a hard and fast rule that you are sent home if you have two spins during the weekend, and that two wheels off counts as a spin. Although I would never admit it to them face-to-face, the people I have in mind are good and consciencous drivers who seek to learn. They, like many drivers I know, do spin or drop wheels off from time to time and, depending upon how rigorously you apply the definition of spin/wheels dropped off, have done so twice during a weekend several times. These guys are considering dropping out of NNJR's VIR event because they don't want to waste their time and money only to be sent home early.
It is no secret that I am a fan of the events NNJR runs, so they have been quizzing me on this, which led me to ponder the purpose/wisdom of the rule. I have told them that I do not think they have anything to worry about, but it would be nice to hear what others think about that type of rule in general and NNJR in particular.
TD
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger here. I am just willing to raise an issue that typically gets discussed in the paddocks rather than on-line.
10-23-2006, 02:35 PM
#2
Race Director
Not all spins or off are a like. There many differnet reasons for those.
Just a few of them.
1) Mechaincal failure/problem
2) Track conditions (oil, deer, avoiding spinning)
3) Simple driver error - Pushing the limits and getting it wrong
4) Bad driving - poor lines and driving over your head
There are many variations on these.
Now two wheels off? Well in some places on some track is that really and off at all? There are tracks I visit where two off is the line. Clearly on others two off is bad idea.
Remember also in places on the track going off is not that bad. This may not be the case in may east coast tracks, but here in the west there plenty of places going off results in trip through the grass or dirt and nothing more.
No HPDE drivers need to to "go off" to learn. They can learn alot from staying on track. Now a racer is is different. If you are racing or plan on racing then I think you need to experinece on off or two. If done smartly you push like hell in places on that track where you can sustain an off without consequence. I did this a LOT in places where I had room. I have gone off track so many times in the past 4 years I cannot count. Even so only once has an off ever damaged my car. I don't really consider this luck as these "offs" were in places where I had space and room and therefore pushed really hard. There are certain spots on the tracks I visit I have never been off and never want to go off as in those areas the only to come away clean is by luck.
Last weekend I was chasing friend and fellow competitor in my class. We were on the oval part of PIR going flat out 100 MPH on the limit. Hit a patch of oil and nearly slammed into the outside wall. Skill and Luck saved him. That is place were you slowly work the speed up because going off and not hitting the wall is luck. By contrast turn 2 of this same track has a very wide open run off area and both of us have been off track there many many times.
Now what about 2 off or 4 off rules in DE? Well alot depends on the track and think that drives some of these rules. Of course DE really is all about street cars running around a track. Should the rules be different in Novice vs instuctor groups. Probably and most certainly the discussion at black flag station will be very different.
Just a few of them.
1) Mechaincal failure/problem
2) Track conditions (oil, deer, avoiding spinning)
3) Simple driver error - Pushing the limits and getting it wrong
4) Bad driving - poor lines and driving over your head
There are many variations on these.
Now two wheels off? Well in some places on some track is that really and off at all? There are tracks I visit where two off is the line. Clearly on others two off is bad idea.
Remember also in places on the track going off is not that bad. This may not be the case in may east coast tracks, but here in the west there plenty of places going off results in trip through the grass or dirt and nothing more.
No HPDE drivers need to to "go off" to learn. They can learn alot from staying on track. Now a racer is is different. If you are racing or plan on racing then I think you need to experinece on off or two. If done smartly you push like hell in places on that track where you can sustain an off without consequence. I did this a LOT in places where I had room. I have gone off track so many times in the past 4 years I cannot count. Even so only once has an off ever damaged my car. I don't really consider this luck as these "offs" were in places where I had space and room and therefore pushed really hard. There are certain spots on the tracks I visit I have never been off and never want to go off as in those areas the only to come away clean is by luck.
Last weekend I was chasing friend and fellow competitor in my class. We were on the oval part of PIR going flat out 100 MPH on the limit. Hit a patch of oil and nearly slammed into the outside wall. Skill and Luck saved him. That is place were you slowly work the speed up because going off and not hitting the wall is luck. By contrast turn 2 of this same track has a very wide open run off area and both of us have been off track there many many times.
Now what about 2 off or 4 off rules in DE? Well alot depends on the track and think that drives some of these rules. Of course DE really is all about street cars running around a track. Should the rules be different in Novice vs instuctor groups. Probably and most certainly the discussion at black flag station will be very different.
10-23-2006, 02:44 PM
#3
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In my opinion the two spin and you are gone rule is silly when you are also teaching that it is better to go off straight and in control, etc. Learing to give up when all hell has broken loose (the earlier the better in some cases) can prevent damage to cars and to the individual. The "save it at all costs" mentality which the two spins and your gone rule promotes is more detrimental than productive.
I have seen some stoopid acts and the consequences of them during DE's because of rules that couldn't be broken. The number one rule is to do what is safe. If that means spin the car or go two off, or pass on the right instead of the left, etc. etc. Then that is what should be done.
I have seen some stoopid acts and the consequences of them during DE's because of rules that couldn't be broken. The number one rule is to do what is safe. If that means spin the car or go two off, or pass on the right instead of the left, etc. etc. Then that is what should be done.
10-23-2006, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by M758
Now two wheels off? Well in some places on some track is that really and off at all? There are tracks I visit where two off is the line. Clearly on others two off is bad idea.
10-23-2006, 03:21 PM
#5
I have heard about rules like this, mazda drivers has a 5min cool off period for spins (if too many happen in a weekend). But, i think in a novice HPDE, spins can be avoided. Once you start moving up the ranks, so into NASA's HPDE 3 (point bys anywhere) spins will happen from time to time.
For instance:
last time at summit point, WOT though 4 and down into 5 as i was reeling in a miata. What happened, i simply didnt brake hard enough and locked up the rears, hit the concrete and spun off into the grass (The corner workers gave me a round of applause even). This was just me trying to push the car, and i learned a LOT doing that.
now if i go off twice in a weekend from pushing the car and learning, I think its no harm no foul. I'm allowed to learn the entire track (for some that includes the 5-8 express way at summit) and if I didnt spin near anyone, hit anything, and its clear i made a small error, I dont think i should be tossed out.
However, a beginner should not spin twice in a weekend on their own accord. If so i think its clear they are not listening to their instructor and maybe they should sit out a session. As for being tossed out, i dont know about that.
The two off falls in the same relm as spins, a beginner should not be putting two off, and an advanced student should be allowed to push it a little (like me learning i MUST brake for turn.. that was a two off
)
TD, if you are going there to "Race" the track and test its limits, i would go with another group. If youa re going to learn the track and get a feel for it, I would say stick with it.
For instance:
last time at summit point, WOT though 4 and down into 5 as i was reeling in a miata. What happened, i simply didnt brake hard enough and locked up the rears, hit the concrete and spun off into the grass (The corner workers gave me a round of applause even
). This was just me trying to push the car, and i learned a LOT doing that. now if i go off twice in a weekend from pushing the car and learning, I think its no harm no foul. I'm allowed to learn the entire track (for some that includes the 5-8 express way at summit) and if I didnt spin near anyone, hit anything, and its clear i made a small error, I dont think i should be tossed out.
However, a beginner should not spin twice in a weekend on their own accord. If so i think its clear they are not listening to their instructor and maybe they should sit out a session. As for being tossed out, i dont know about that.
The two off falls in the same relm as spins, a beginner should not be putting two off, and an advanced student should be allowed to push it a little (like me learning i MUST brake for turn.. that was a two off
)TD, if you are going there to "Race" the track and test its limits, i would go with another group. If youa re going to learn the track and get a feel for it, I would say stick with it.
10-23-2006, 03:23 PM
#6
Ross,
This thread is not about me. I rarely spin, am not worried if and when I do, and am not concerned about NNJR in the least. This is not a "I have a friend" scenario.
Thanks,
TD
This thread is not about me. I rarely spin, am not worried if and when I do, and am not concerned about NNJR in the least. This is not a "I have a friend" scenario.
Thanks,
TD
10-23-2006, 03:27 PM
#7
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Spins happen, especially if you're pushing the limits. Where/when are the problems.
I'd be more concerned with cars passing without signals or passing in corners (still DEs, right?). Reckless driving should get the boot.
I'd be more concerned with cars passing without signals or passing in corners (still DEs, right?). Reckless driving should get the boot.
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10-23-2006, 03:41 PM
#9
Race Director
Todd - As always, you always come up with thought provoking and interesting concepts in DE.
As far as the "two spin rule" and NNJR goes, here are my comments:
1. Why are folks already worried about going off the track TWICE? Well before the event has even started? How often to these folks spin / drive off more than twice an event?
2. This is not racing, nor is it practice for racing. Thus, IMHO, there is really no reason to push it at 10/10ths. A driver doesn't need to be driving at 10/10ths in order to improve their ability.
When a student of mine gets behind a slower driver, I always say to them, "While we are running at a reduced pace, I want you to drive the PERFECT line." Same applies to anyone - if conditions require a driver to drive at a slower pace, or they have to tone it down at drive at less than 10/10ths, they should be able to drive the perfect line. If they can't, they have something to work on. IMHO, a driver can learn far more by driving a clean line at 7/10ths or 8/10ths, than they can by sloppy driving 10/10ths where they barely hang on.
3. It is all about the attitdue. If you spin/go off - it is best to go directly to the chiefs, and state your case. A simple admittance of your mistake goes a long way. "I screwed up the corner - thought I could carry more speed through there - but obivously I couldn't" is all that is needed. As long as they see that you know what went wrong, and you agree to take it down a notch - you should be fine.
4. In all my events that I've attended since 2001 with NNJR, I have personally yet to see a person being asked to leave due to the two-spin rule. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but there are "grey areas" to this "hard and fast" rule.
-Z-man.
As far as the "two spin rule" and NNJR goes, here are my comments:
1. Why are folks already worried about going off the track TWICE? Well before the event has even started? How often to these folks spin / drive off more than twice an event?
2. This is not racing, nor is it practice for racing. Thus, IMHO, there is really no reason to push it at 10/10ths. A driver doesn't need to be driving at 10/10ths in order to improve their ability.
When a student of mine gets behind a slower driver, I always say to them, "While we are running at a reduced pace, I want you to drive the PERFECT line." Same applies to anyone - if conditions require a driver to drive at a slower pace, or they have to tone it down at drive at less than 10/10ths, they should be able to drive the perfect line. If they can't, they have something to work on. IMHO, a driver can learn far more by driving a clean line at 7/10ths or 8/10ths, than they can by sloppy driving 10/10ths where they barely hang on.
3. It is all about the attitdue. If you spin/go off - it is best to go directly to the chiefs, and state your case. A simple admittance of your mistake goes a long way. "I screwed up the corner - thought I could carry more speed through there - but obivously I couldn't" is all that is needed. As long as they see that you know what went wrong, and you agree to take it down a notch - you should be fine.
4. In all my events that I've attended since 2001 with NNJR, I have personally yet to see a person being asked to leave due to the two-spin rule. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but there are "grey areas" to this "hard and fast" rule.
-Z-man.
Last edited by Z-man; 10-23-2006 at 03:57 PM.
10-23-2006, 03:42 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
Are all Spins/Offs Created Equal?
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
10-23-2006, 03:44 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Z-man
3. It is all about the attitdue. If you spin/go off - it is best to go directly to the chiefs, and state your case. A simple admittance of your mistake goes a long way. "I screwed up the corner - thought I could carry more speed through there - but obivously I couldn't" is all that is needed. As long as they see that you know what went wrong, and you agree to take it down a notch - you should be fine.
4. In all my events that I've attended since 2001 with NNJR, I have personally yet to see a person being asked to leave due to the two-spin rule. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but there are "grey areas" to this "hard and fast" rule.
-Z-man.
4. In all my events that I've attended since 2001 with NNJR, I have personally yet to see a person being asked to leave due to the two-spin rule. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but there are "grey areas" to this "hard and fast" rule.
-Z-man.
Three and Four are what I strongly suspected and tried to explain to my friends. Nonetheless, the conversations led me to think about the issue on a grander scale.
10-23-2006, 03:47 PM
#13
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Rules are never cast in stone. In my estimation, that rule was made because NNJR used to have a bunch of ignorrant fools that didn't realize that crashing is dangerous. They really don't have that problem anymore. It allows them to more easily get rid of people that don't get it. Good rule, properly applied.
If you are worried about getting sent home, stay home.
If you are worried about getting sent home, stay home.
10-23-2006, 04:26 PM
#14
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Every PCA resion has the "we reserve the right to send anyone home who is driving in an unsafe manner" rule. So why the need for a zero-tolerance "2 spin" rule? The first rule covers anyone driving like an idiot, esp like JayP says - passing in turns, passing without a signal, etc, all of which are more dangerous than spinning IMO. I've never run with NNJR, but knowing that they consider dropping 2 off a "spin", and knowing that I may do that 3-4 times a weekend in Oak Tree makes me consider not running with them at all. I don't want to to blow a $600 weekend just because I hit some dirt on trackout a couple of times.
So the question isn't really "how fast should green group students drive" but more how is this 2 spin rule applied to an otherwise safe driver who happens to overcook a corner once or twice?
So the question isn't really "how fast should green group students drive" but more how is this 2 spin rule applied to an otherwise safe driver who happens to overcook a corner once or twice?
10-23-2006, 04:45 PM
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Two wheels off is a valid driving technique for preventing a spin and keeping a car under control, especially when there is little runoff. I've seen cars flipped at DE's when their drivers came in early and then pinched it to stay on track, when if they had simply put two wheels off they could have driven straight and back on with no mishap. Two wheels off used properly is a good thing and shouldn't be punished. I can't believe NNJR would send someone home for that.